Place Name Destination Order - Signs

[Traffic]

Hi All!

A simple question from the new member if you don’t mind helping.

LTN 94/1 states:

(c) Place name destinations, generally in the order of furthest first.

Is this still current guidance?

I note the use of the word generally - are there exceptions to this?

Also what is the school of thought about replacing signs and correcting the order?

The new signs may be correct in terms of destination order but if the other signs on the route are ‘wrong’ the new sign isn’t consistent.

Thanks in advance!

[Steven]

Yes, I believe it still is the current guidance to have "furthest first", which conflicts with "nearest first" on Route Confirmation signs.

Personally, I think it's a bit silly, but there you go - I think a general "nearest first" rule is more sensible.

[Chris5156]

Also what is the school of thought about replacing signs and correcting the order?

Any replacement for an existing sign should involve a review of the need for the sign and what should be displayed on it, to make sure the new one is appropriate. In reality that happens much less often than you’d hope and many signs are replaced like for like without any thought as to whether the old sign was still correct or appropriate - sometimes to the extent of recreating a design or layout that was removed from the regulations decades ago.

[Conekicker]

Also what is the school of thought about replacing signs and correcting the order?

The new signs may be correct in terms of destination order but if the other signs on the route are ‘wrong’ the new sign isn’t consistent.

The replacement sign should be correctly designed, even if it then becomes inconsistent with signs either side of it. Errors need to be put right at some point, even if it's slow and incremental. It's ridiculous to replace an incorrect sign with another one.

[Owain]

I noticed the other day that "London" appears on signs on the M1 extension to the east of Leeds, only without any distance. All of the more local locations have the distance shown. I'd have to drive it again to be sure, but I think that "London" appeared at the top in some cases, and at the bottom on others!

On the M60 north of Manchester, "Liverpool" is shown together with a number of other locations. However, somebody with a spray can has deleted the distance shown. Presumably it was done by a Manc not overly keen on Liverpool!

[Steven]

I noticed the other day that "London" appears on signs on the M1 extension to the east of Leeds, only without any distance. All of the more local locations have the distance shown. I'd have to drive it again to be sure, but I think that "London" appeared at the top in some cases, and at the bottom on others!

It's probably down to the weird way that London is sometimes treated as a Primary Destination; and at other times like a Regional Destination.

[wrinkly]

I noticed the other day that "London" appears on signs on the M1 extension to the east of Leeds, only without any distance. All of the more local locations have the distance shown. I'd have to drive it again to be sure, but I think that "London" appeared at the top in some cases, and at the bottom on others!

I've posted about this curiosity more than once. I believe it's entirely on signs dating from early 1999 on what was known until it opened as the M1-A1 link. A quick scan on Streetview suggests London is the top destination in all cases.

It had never occurred to me until I saw Steven's post that it might be anything to do with regional destinations. I just assumed it was laziness. I've never heard of an omitted mileage for London anywhere else.

London is in mixed case on the gantry ADSs as well as on the route confirmation signs in question.

When you continue onto the original M1, the signs are recent, dating from the ALR, and London is not named on either the gantry sign for J41 or the nearby RCS.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Another example of a city appearing on a route confirmation sign but no mileage is shown:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.98161 ... 6656?hl=en

Stoke-on-Trent used to be signed on the northbound fork signs at Junction 16 but it was removed some years ago when new fork signs were erected.

[Chris5156]

I noticed the other day that "London" appears on signs on the M1 extension to the east of Leeds, only without any distance. All of the more local locations have the distance shown. I'd have to drive it again to be sure, but I think that "London" appeared at the top in some cases, and at the bottom on others!

I've posted about this curiosity more than once. I believe it's entirely on signs dating from early 1999 on what was known until it opened as the M1-A1 link. A quick scan on Streetview suggests London is the top destination in all cases.

Yes, I think that's right.

When you continue onto the original M1, the signs are recent, dating from the ALR, and London is not named on either the gantry sign for J41 or the nearby RCS.

I'm not sure that London appears on RCS or direction signs, once you're south of the M62, for quite some distance.

[Conekicker]

I'm not sure that London appears on RCS or direction signs, once you're south of the M62, for quite some distance.

As I vaguely recall, it comes and goes. Another error that needs fixing whenever an individual sign is replaced. For various reasons, I'm sadly not overly hopeful on that score.

[Bryn666]

Whilst we have the primary list destination in LTN 1/94 we don't have control destination maps like other countries have so we get this total mash up depending on who designed signs.

Having had some wonk from HE tell me last week that signposting "NORTH WALES (A494, A55)" on a road that leads there at a junction for a S278 job would confuse people because all the other signs are inconsistent sums it up really.

[A303Chris]

Whilst we have the primary list destination in LTN 1/94 we don't have control destination maps like other countries have so we get this total mash up depending on who designed signs.

Having had some wonk from HE tell me last week that signposting "NORTH WALES (A494, A55)" on a road that leads there at a junction for a S278 job would confuse people because all the other signs are inconsistent sums it up really.

You wait until you put the sign up and the officer has changed you will be told it should be "NORTH WALES (A494, A55)". Oh S278 approvals how HA's and the HE change there mind between Planning approval, Design Approval and Construction

[Gareth Thomas]

I had been wondering about this after seeing the newish signs at Junction 5 on the M25 now refer to "Dover, Channel Tunnel, Maidstone M26 (M20)" rather than "Maidstone, Channel Tunnel, Dover M26 (M20)".

The RCS on the M20 Londonbound are mostly nearest to furthest, but there are some (eg after J13 and J9) which have London on top.

[roadtester]

My brother alerted me to this interesting graphic posted by the Terrible Maps Twitter account. It’s a map showing which countries display destination cities in ascending mileage order and which show them in descending order. Not sure how accurate it is…

https://twitter.com/terriblemaps/status ... 12065?s=12

[Osthagen]

I noticed the other day that "London" appears on signs on the M1 extension to the east of Leeds, only without any distance. All of the more local locations have the distance shown. I'd have to drive it again to be sure, but I think that "London" appeared at the top in some cases, and at the bottom on others!

On the M60 north of Manchester, "Liverpool" is shown together with a number of other locations. However, somebody with a spray can has deleted the distance shown. Presumably it was done by a Manc not overly keen on Liverpool!

Historically, on the M1 South between the M62 and M25, "London" was shown on just about every directional sign, alongside whatever the nearest control destination happened to be, see this sign in 2008. The chain going southbound IIRC was "Wakefield, London", "Barnsley, London", "Sheffield, London", "Nottingham, London", "Leicester, London", etc, until lastly just "London".

However, I don't think an RCS distance to London on the M1 ever appeared north of this at J25, which remains to this day.

Almost all signs giving London prominence before J25 were removed except, oddly, those on the 1999 section, where the "London" references are retained.