M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Peter350
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Peter350 »

Why terminate the northern end at a Roundabout? All it's going to do is increase congestion on the already overloaded M6 J11. Extending it to meet the M6 toll J8 sliproads would be much better, as you can then have a fully freeflow link which would be eligible for motorway classification.

Where the D2 A460 currently crosses the M6 toll just before the A4601 roundabout, the existing northbound carriageway would become the northbound A460(M) heading straight onto the freeflow loop to the M6 toll, while the current southbound carriageway would become an S2 A460, which also crosses over the southbound A460(M) carriageway via a skewed bridge as shown in my drawing. Traffic leaving the M6 toll at J8 would flow straight onto a new flyover passing over M6 J11, effectively creating a stackabout, albeit without any access to M6 J11 from that direction. Traffic wishing to use this movement can always do so by leaving at M6 toll J7.
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jackal
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by jackal »

Better but still lacks freeflow between the link and M6, which is the main thing missing from the current proposal. Previous HE designs included this extra freeflow:


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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Peter350 wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 21:13 Why terminate the northern end at a Roundabout? All it's going to do is increase congestion on the already overloaded M6 J11. Extending it to meet the M6 toll J8 sliproads would be much better, as you can then have a fully freeflow link which would be eligible for motorway classification.

Where the D2 A460 currently crosses the M6 toll just before the A4601 roundabout, the existing northbound carriageway would become the northbound A460(M) heading straight onto the freeflow loop to the M6 toll, while the current southbound carriageway would become an S2 A460, which also crosses over the southbound A460(M) carriageway via a skewed bridge as shown in my drawing. Traffic leaving the M6 toll at J8 would flow straight onto a new flyover passing over M6 J11, effectively creating a stackabout, albeit without any access to M6 J11 from that direction. Traffic wishing to use this movement can always do so by leaving at M6 toll J7.
You could add M54->M6 very easily with a slip road onto the end of the M6Toll. M6->M54 is harder.
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Peter350
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Big L wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 21:41
Peter350 wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 21:13 Why terminate the northern end at a Roundabout? All it's going to do is increase congestion on the already overloaded M6 J11. Extending it to meet the M6 toll J8 sliproads would be much better, as you can then have a fully freeflow link which would be eligible for motorway classification.

Where the D2 A460 currently crosses the M6 toll just before the A4601 roundabout, the existing northbound carriageway would become the northbound A460(M) heading straight onto the freeflow loop to the M6 toll, while the current southbound carriageway would become an S2 A460, which also crosses over the southbound A460(M) carriageway via a skewed bridge as shown in my drawing. Traffic leaving the M6 toll at J8 would flow straight onto a new flyover passing over M6 J11, effectively creating a stackabout, albeit without any access to M6 J11 from that direction. Traffic wishing to use this movement can always do so by leaving at M6 toll J7.
You could add M54->M6 very easily with a slip road onto the end of the M6Toll. M6->M54 is harder.
I was thinking of adding these to form a trumpet interchange, although the downside of this is you would have to realign the all-purpose A460 and A4601 to the east, as the M6>M54 slip road would sever the existing roundabout serving these routes. It could probably be done however if there was enough money and would be much better than traffic having to negotiate the M6 J11 roundabout.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Truvelo »

The problem with the current HE proposal is that it focuses freeflow at the M54 end where congestion hardly occurs. The only congestion at J1 is the tail end of the queue on the A460 which is caused by the lights at Featherstone, or on a bad day all the way to M6 J11.

Freeflowing J11 is what's needed. However Peter's proposal would be better if the freeflow north of J11 favoured the A460 and A4601 as these take a large chunk of the traffic. Freeflow between M6 south and A460 north would take a significant amount of traffic away from J11 too.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by A320Driver »

We should count ourselves lucky that there is free flow at the M54 end.
To build two new bridges over a motorway and NOT to provide a free flow link is quite frankly shameful.

As said upthread, when will they learn? M6 J19 and M25 J10 are of similar ilk - whilst anything is arguably better than nothing, when you factor in the future (unknown) cost of an upgrade, it’s a terrible waste of money.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Gav »

Going about it the wrong way totally....

Why build a new road when you have the M6 ? rework the junctions and provide movements to and from the M54 to and from the M6 north. There is enough land there to redevelop that junction. Expand the M6 to D6M and provide access to and from the M6 toll to the M6 south.

very simple to do and yes it would involve rework of the services and for junction 11.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Berk »

jackal wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 21:31 Better but still lacks freeflow between the link and M6, which is the main thing missing from the current proposal. Previous HE designs included this extra freeflow:


Image
Seeing as B(W) is the option HE really wanted to go for, how hard would it be to alter the proposed design towards that when money finally becomes available??

If it isn’t phenomenally expensive, I still believe we should build it in stages (only because the Govt./HE lack forward vision) - rather than not build anything at all for another 30 years.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Berk wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 23:05 Seeing as B(W) is the option HE really wanted to go for, how hard would it be to alter the proposed design towards that when money finally becomes available??

If it isn’t phenomenally expensive, I still believe we should build it in stages (only because the Govt./HE lack forward vision) - rather than not build anything at all for another 30 years.
This is what they would build if they really wanted to build it in stages.

M54 M6 link 2018 future proofing.png

Green gets built now. (Maybe add a half diamond with south-facing slips where the new link crosses the A460.) Yellow gets built at some future point if MEL cough up the cash.
Last edited by jackal on Thu May 23, 2019 12:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Bryn666 »

Gav wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 23:03 Going about it the wrong way totally....

Why build a new road when you have the M6 ? rework the junctions and provide movements to and from the M54 to and from the M6 north. There is enough land there to redevelop that junction. Expand the M6 to D6M and provide access to and from the M6 toll to the M6 south.

very simple to do and yes it would involve rework of the services and for junction 11.
That is anything but simple though! The number of M6 structures replaced, relocating a service area, and add in that a twelve lane cross section is both inefficient and a departure from accepted highway standards...
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Steven »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:46
Gav wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 23:03 Going about it the wrong way totally....

Why build a new road when you have the M6 ? rework the junctions and provide movements to and from the M54 to and from the M6 north. There is enough land there to redevelop that junction. Expand the M6 to D6M and provide access to and from the M6 toll to the M6 south.

very simple to do and yes it would involve rework of the services and for junction 11.
That is anything but simple though! The number of M6 structures replaced, relocating a service area, and add in that a twelve lane cross section is both inefficient and a departure from accepted highway standards...
That's without understanding the height differences going on. It would need a LOT of earthworks as well as a complete removal of Hilton Park Services, J11 and a lot of height on the M6 southbound to M54 slip; plus the massive disruption along the M6. Dumping yet more traffic on an overloaded stretch of road is far less efficient than simply building a new road.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by fras »

There can't be many people that would miss Hilton Park MSA, it's a dump ! I suspect the current owners would be glad for it to be taken from them, they'd probably save a load of money. Far better to move this MSA further north and then develop northern links at the M54/M6 junction.

This whole affair seems to show a complete lack of imagination by HE
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Jeni »

fras wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 16:13 There can't be many people that would miss Hilton Park MSA, it's a dump ! I suspect the current owners would be glad for it to be taken from them, they'd probably save a load of money. Far better to move this MSA further north and then develop northern links at the M54/M6 junction.

This whole affair seems to show a complete lack of imagination by HE
Hilton Park always seems busy when I visit, I'm not too sure they'd be pleased!
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Yeah, I suppose it's busy most times, but does this mean the operator makes money ? Still a dump, though !
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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fras wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 21:57 Yeah, I suppose it's busy most times, but does this mean the operator makes money ? Still a dump, though !
Practically all MSA’s are dumps. I’m amazed anyone uses them apart from fuel.

(He said, remembering the occasional stops at South Mimms and Pease Pottage. Honestly, they’re the only ones I regularly visit - heading south you’ve got no choice other than the M25!! :paperbag:)
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Berk wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 22:37
fras wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 21:57 Yeah, I suppose it's busy most times, but does this mean the operator makes money ? Still a dump, though !
Practically all MSA’s are dumps. I’m amazed anyone uses them apart from fuel.

(He said, remembering the occasional stops at South Mimms and Pease Pottage. Honestly, they’re the only ones I regularly visit - heading south you’ve got no choice other than the M25!! :paperbag:)
I'm amazed that anyone uses them for fuel. Toilet stop and occasional coffee.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

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Big L wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 22:51
Berk wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 22:37
fras wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 21:57 Yeah, I suppose it's busy most times, but does this mean the operator makes money ? Still a dump, though !
Practically all MSA’s are dumps. I’m amazed anyone uses them apart from fuel.

(He said, remembering the occasional stops at South Mimms and Pease Pottage. Honestly, they’re the only ones I regularly visit - heading south you’ve got no choice other than the M25!! :paperbag:)
I'm amazed that anyone uses them for fuel. Toilet stop and occasional coffee.
The latter two you definitely don’t need to use the services for (unless again, you’re using a route like the M60/M25).
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by ais523 »

Peter350 wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 21:13 Why terminate the northern end at a Roundabout? All it's going to do is increase congestion on the already overloaded M6 J11. Extending it to meet the M6 toll J8 sliproads would be much better, as you can then have a fully freeflow link which would be eligible for motorway classification.
Basically the issue is that MEL have refused to pay for a link to the M6 Toll, and thus HE aren't going to give them one unless they pay up.

I agree that it would make sense to future-proof the junction, though, in case MEL change their mind and/or the M6 Toll gets bought out by someone who's more interested in providing access to it.

The original plan was a half-trumpet between the new link road and the M6 (which would give an easy way to extend onwards to the M6 Toll if necessary). I'm somewhat concerned about diverge/diverge and merge/merge spacing with such a design, but it at least seems more reasonable than having a single roundabout that has to deal with both an interchange between two strategic roads, and also local traffic; that's a hard mix to make work.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by jackal »

Statutory consultation now open: https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... link-road/

Detailed plan here: https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... 20plan.pdf

Seems to be the same as the design from January, with J11 botch.
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Re: M54 Extension and M6 Toll/M42 Jct Improvements announced

Post by Bryn666 »

The shape of J11 and the entry alignment from the A460 is atrocious, even for "signalised from day one" roundabouts.

Also "motor way service area" on the labels layer suggests this has been farmed out abroad to cheaper design teams.
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