Old signs 'illegal'

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jnty
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 09:08 Answer: My understanding is taken from The Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 section 4.7.1 which states,"... At the start of a dual carriageway, it (meaning a keep left or keep right sign) may be accompanied by a plate with the legend “Dual carriageway”. This plate is particularly important on roads subject to the national speed limit to indicate that different speed limits may now apply.
This is surely just referring to the fact that on roads subject to the national speed limit, the limit will increase from 60 to 70 and some extra reinforcement of this may be desirable. If the road is indeed a restricted road due to the streetlights, it becomes restricted before the DC at both ends so the road is not NSL and the final sentence is irrelevant anyway.

In any case, 'dual carriageway ahead' generally indicates an increase in road standard and often an increase in speed limit even on non-NSL roads, and the design of the road through here gives no reason for the motorist to think that wouldn't be the case here. It would be a very counter-intuitive engineer who put this sign up on its own on the assumption that motorists would somehow interpret it as advance warning that they will soon need to halve their speed. I'm sure this is borne out by general driver behaviour through this section - presumably freeflow average speeds are at least 50mph if not much higher.

I'd argue that it's probably a bad move to put this sign up at all immediately before a junction as it primes motorists to accelerate for an overtake, whereas leaving them to interpret the situation as it arises would probably encourage the slightly more cautious behaviour required for this section and keep speed differentials lower. Either way, I would be extremely surprised if even a handful of motorists a day interpreted it as a cause to slow down.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:02
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 09:08 Answer: My understanding is taken from The Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 section 4.7.1 which states,"... At the start of a dual carriageway, it (meaning a keep left or keep right sign) may be accompanied by a plate with the legend “Dual carriageway”. This plate is particularly important on roads subject to the national speed limit to indicate that different speed limits may now apply.
This is surely just referring to the fact that on roads subject to the national speed limit, the limit will increase from 60 to 70 and some extra reinforcement of this may be desirable. If the road is indeed a restricted road due to the streetlights, it becomes restricted before the DC at both ends so the road is not NSL and the final sentence is irrelevant anyway.

In any case, 'dual carriageway ahead' generally indicates an increase in road standard and often an increase in speed limit even on non-NSL roads, and the design of the road through here gives no reason for the motorist to think that wouldn't be the case here. It would be a very counter-intuitive engineer who put this sign up on its own on the assumption that motorists would somehow interpret it as advance warning that they will soon need to halve their speed. I'm sure this is borne out by general driver behaviour through this section - presumably freeflow average speeds are at least 50mph if not much higher.

I'd argue that it's probably a bad move to put this sign up at all immediately before a junction as it primes motorists to accelerate for an overtake, whereas leaving them to interpret the situation as it arises would probably encourage the slightly more cautious behaviour required for this section and keep speed differentials lower. Either way, I would be extremely surprised if even a handful of motorists a day interpreted it as a cause to slow down.
Answer: The Dual Carriageway Ahead sign indicates the road speed MAY change and in his case it does so, with the existence of Streetlight making it 30 mph. The A672 DC road is in law therefore a a 'Restricted Road' and thereby 30 mph applies. It would require a TRO to change that and none have been approved to date.

I agree that the existence of a DC can indicate an improvement in road standard, but in this case it appears to have been placed there when the motorway was constructed to simply assist the vehicles going on and off the Motorway and indeed the right had side lane of the A672 just prior to the underpass/bridge has a large white arrow in the middle of the that outside lane indicating it is for Right turning vehicles!?... Surely this would dampen motorists appetite to overtake at this particular part of the DC given the 4 major junctions!?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.63017 ... 384!8i8192

To increase the speed of the A672 road just because you are at a DC and ignoring the existence of the 4 major road junctions in front of you would IMHO be folly. I note the following quote from, https://showmeasign.online/2017/03/22/d ... y-signing/ The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges now explicitly prohibits the use of a ‘full’ dual carriageway purely at junctions on otherwise single carriageway roads, which makes sense on safety grounds; the very last place you want traffic to speed up and start overtaking is in the vicinity of a junction after all.


It has previously been suggested, that motorists would not (if placed in situ), heed any 30 mph Terminal Gateway signs. If this were true, they are surely missing out on what is a timely reminder of the 30 mph Speed Limit at this location to give motorists an AWARENESS OF THE SPEED rather than to be potentially caught out by a Video Van and they then have to endure a SPEED AWARENESS course to find that information out!?
jnty
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:01 Answer: The Dual Carriageway Ahead sign indicates the road speed MAY change and in his case it does so, with the existence of Streetlight making it 30 mph.


I agree that the existence of a DC can indicate an improvement in road standard, but in this case it appears to have been placed there when the motorway was constructed to simply assist the vehicles going on and off the Motorway and indeed the right had side lane of the A672 just prior to the underpass/bridge has a large white arrow in the middle of the that outside lane indicating it is for Right turning vehicles!?... Surely this would dampen motorists appetite to overtake at this particular part of the DC given the 4 major junctions!?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.63017 ... 384!8i8192

To increase the speed of the A672 road just because you are at a DC and ignoring the existence of the 4 major road junctions in front of you would IMHO be folly. I note the following quote from, https://showmeasign.online/2017/03/22/d ... y-signing/ The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges now explicitly prohibits the use of a ‘full’ dual carriageway purely at junctions on otherwise single carriageway roads, which makes sense on safety grounds; the very last place you want traffic to speed up and start overtaking is in the vicinity of a junction after all.


It has previously been suggested, that motorists would not (if placed in situ), heed any 30 mph Terminal Gateway signs. If this were true, they are surely missing out on what is a timely reminder of the 30 mph Speed Limit at this location to give motorists an AWARENESS OF THE SPEED rather than to be potentially caught out by a Video Van and they then have to endure a SPEED AWARENESS course to find that information out!?
The guidance is written fairly informally, but I think the implication - that the speed limit "change" would only be an automatic increase under NSL rules - is pretty clear. It would be hard to interpret that guidance to mean that it could ever imply a speed reduction and let alone be the only indication of this. In any case it fails the test of driver understanding - nobody will interpret that way, especially in a rural context.

I generally agree with your points on safety but I suspect 30mph would be oddly low for this layout even without modification. It is very clearly not the intent, nor the result.

While I'm not a lawyer and the single law you linked would suggest that a prosecution for speeding would be possible here, I would be very surprised if such a prosecution would be successful. Others probably know more, but I'd imagine there's case law or defences to speeding laid out in other statutes which would make it possible to avoid conviction - the principle that non-NSL speed limits should always be signed at the start is very well established on the roads of Britain and I wouldn't be surprised if this principle holds in the courts as well. In any case, I'd have thought that enforcement at 30mph is very unlikely on this road - the police probably don't even know about it. Are you aware of any prosecutions relating to this stretch?
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:23
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:01 Answer: The Dual Carriageway Ahead sign indicates the road speed MAY change and in his case it does so, with the existence of Streetlight making it 30 mph.


I agree that the existence of a DC can indicate an improvement in road standard, but in this case it appears to have been placed there when the motorway was constructed to simply assist the vehicles going on and off the Motorway and indeed the right had side lane of the A672 just prior to the underpass/bridge has a large white arrow in the middle of the that outside lane indicating it is for Right turning vehicles!?... Surely this would dampen motorists appetite to overtake at this particular part of the DC given the 4 major junctions!?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.63017 ... 384!8i8192

To increase the speed of the A672 road just because you are at a DC and ignoring the existence of the 4 major road junctions in front of you would IMHO be folly. I note the following quote from, https://showmeasign.online/2017/03/22/d ... y-signing/ The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges now explicitly prohibits the use of a ‘full’ dual carriageway purely at junctions on otherwise single carriageway roads, which makes sense on safety grounds; the very last place you want traffic to speed up and start overtaking is in the vicinity of a junction after all.


It has previously been suggested, that motorists would not (if placed in situ), heed any 30 mph Terminal Gateway signs. If this were true, they are surely missing out on what is a timely reminder of the 30 mph Speed Limit at this location to give motorists an AWARENESS OF THE SPEED rather than to be potentially caught out by a Video Van and they then have to endure a SPEED AWARENESS course to find that information out!?
The guidance is written fairly informally, but I think the implication - that the speed limit "change" would only be an automatic increase under NSL rules - is pretty clear. It would be hard to interpret that guidance to mean that it could ever imply a speed reduction and let alone be the only indication of this. In any case it fails the test of driver understanding - nobody will interpret that way, especially in a rural context.

I generally agree with your points on safety but I suspect 30mph would be oddly low for this layout even without modification. It is very clearly not the intent, nor the result.

While I'm not a lawyer and the single law you linked would suggest that a prosecution for speeding would be possible here, I would be very surprised if such a prosecution would be successful. Others probably know more, but I'd imagine there's case law or defences to speeding laid out in other statutes which would make it possible to avoid conviction - the principle that non-NSL speed limits should always be signed at the start is very well established on the roads of Britain and I wouldn't be surprised if this principle holds in the courts as well. In any case, I'd have thought that enforcement at 30mph is very unlikely on this road - the police probably don't even know about it. Are you aware of any prosecutions relating to this stretch?


I sincerely appreciate all engagement on this matter, but surely whilst the law may fail the test of some drivers understanding it nevertheless is the law. I would like to refer to the following legislation:
RTA 1984 - Section 85 (5)
In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with [such a system of street or carriageway lighting], evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.

This legislation makes it clear and unambiguous that there does not need to be a maximum speed limit sign in place for a 30 mph maximum speed limit to legally apply, when the road is a ‘Restricted Road’ as this dual carriageway is.
!?
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Bryn666
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Bryn666 »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:45 Answer: In view of my earlier post showing that the feeder roads to Motorways were seen in the report as 30mph. Are you able to post any evidence to the contrary that "The intention has always been that the road through here was national speed limit"?

I think given the issue was raised over 10 years ago then Calderdale MBC have not fulfilled this and many more their obligations at this location. Please see the state of the rusted and disintegrated dangerous barrier sited under the bridge heading towards Denshaw on A672 DC. I was thinking of posting it for picture of the month or should that be decade!?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.62974 ... 384!8i8192
What was written in an engineering report in 1969 before the M62 opened has no bearing on the actual situation on the ground today though. There has never been a policy of mandatory 30 limits at motorway junctions, this is a flight of fancy on the part of whoever wrote that report - the fact that when the M62 opened Junctions 23, 24, and 25 all had lit roundabouts and dual carriageway approaches which were all at the time signposted as national speed limit shows that J22 is just a situation of poor signing maintenance and can easily be rectified as part of the next Speed Limit Order to either reduce the speed limit on the A672 to restricted road by virtue of streetlighting, which is unlikely because of the fact nobody will adhere to it, or more likely to reduce the entire length from Ripponden to the Oldham boundary to 50 for route consistency purposes.
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:45 Answer: I am not saying the Traffic Signs Manual has a bearing on Speed Limit Setting. But, I am saying the presence of the 'Dual Carriageway Ahead 'sign means more than just that and indicates that a change of speed MAY lay ahead. In this case the A672 change is from NSL to 30mph with the presence of streetlights throughout the DC. The use of the word May is no doubt used in the manual because it likely that on other roads the single carriageway preceding the lit DC could also have streetlights and be 30 mph and therefore in that instance there is no change of speed 30mph into 30mph when entering a lit DC!?
The dual carriageway ahead sign only informs you of a change of road layout - in the absence of actual speed limit signs it may be possible to assume that the restricted road limit applies but in practice no police officer will enforce this as there is no sign to tell you that you've come from a derestricted unlit road into a restricted lit one. The absence of signs at the start of the system of streetlighting invalidates any prosecutions brought for exceeding 30 mph.

The lighting is not original to the motorway opening anyway having dug about a bit. J22 was unlit until well into the late 1970s so the problem originates here, not with the opening of the motorway itself. The fact the junction opened unlit explains why there has been no subsequent legal paperwork to allow for the lighting to exist as part of a route subject to national speed limit.
Bryn
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jnty
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:42
jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:23
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:01 Answer: The Dual Carriageway Ahead sign indicates the road speed MAY change and in his case it does so, with the existence of Streetlight making it 30 mph.


I agree that the existence of a DC can indicate an improvement in road standard, but in this case it appears to have been placed there when the motorway was constructed to simply assist the vehicles going on and off the Motorway and indeed the right had side lane of the A672 just prior to the underpass/bridge has a large white arrow in the middle of the that outside lane indicating it is for Right turning vehicles!?... Surely this would dampen motorists appetite to overtake at this particular part of the DC given the 4 major junctions!?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.63017 ... 384!8i8192

To increase the speed of the A672 road just because you are at a DC and ignoring the existence of the 4 major road junctions in front of you would IMHO be folly. I note the following quote from, https://showmeasign.online/2017/03/22/d ... y-signing/ The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges now explicitly prohibits the use of a ‘full’ dual carriageway purely at junctions on otherwise single carriageway roads, which makes sense on safety grounds; the very last place you want traffic to speed up and start overtaking is in the vicinity of a junction after all.


It has previously been suggested, that motorists would not (if placed in situ), heed any 30 mph Terminal Gateway signs. If this were true, they are surely missing out on what is a timely reminder of the 30 mph Speed Limit at this location to give motorists an AWARENESS OF THE SPEED rather than to be potentially caught out by a Video Van and they then have to endure a SPEED AWARENESS course to find that information out!?
The guidance is written fairly informally, but I think the implication - that the speed limit "change" would only be an automatic increase under NSL rules - is pretty clear. It would be hard to interpret that guidance to mean that it could ever imply a speed reduction and let alone be the only indication of this. In any case it fails the test of driver understanding - nobody will interpret that way, especially in a rural context.

I generally agree with your points on safety but I suspect 30mph would be oddly low for this layout even without modification. It is very clearly not the intent, nor the result.

While I'm not a lawyer and the single law you linked would suggest that a prosecution for speeding would be possible here, I would be very surprised if such a prosecution would be successful. Others probably know more, but I'd imagine there's case law or defences to speeding laid out in other statutes which would make it possible to avoid conviction - the principle that non-NSL speed limits should always be signed at the start is very well established on the roads of Britain and I wouldn't be surprised if this principle holds in the courts as well. In any case, I'd have thought that enforcement at 30mph is very unlikely on this road - the police probably don't even know about it. Are you aware of any prosecutions relating to this stretch?
I sincerely appreciate all engagement on this matter, but surely whilst the law may fail the test of some drivers understanding it nevertheless is the law. I would like to refer to the following legislation:
RTA 1984 - Section 85 (5)
In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with [such a system of street or carriageway lighting], evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.

This legislation makes it clear and unambiguous that there does not need to be a maximum speed limit sign in place for a 30 mph maximum speed limit to legally apply, when the road is a ‘Restricted Road’ as this dual carriageway is.
!?
Statue law is statue law, but in practice when a determination must be made and the law is interpreted in court, the specific context of the offence is considered against the whole body of statute law, along with case law set by hundreds of years of precedents in cases heard in the past and a lot more besides. If it were just a case of googling the closest applicable law and deciding it off that then court cases would not take nearly so long and lawyers would probably not be so well paid!

It is certainly in principle the case on roads that a law may exist - for example, in the form of a TRO - but not actually apply to any drivers as it is unsigned. I may drive in contravention of that TRO but if I were prosecuted for that, full evaluation of all relevant statutes would find that I did not commit an offence. This case is ostensibly different though - as you've noted, the law explicitly states that no signage is required for the limit to take effect and indeed, if I tore through a busy urban suburb at 60, my defence that the 30mph signs I passed 3 miles earlier were a bit hard to see would probably hold little truck with a judge.

However, I would be extremely surprised if a judge would convict here, considering the specific context, the intent of the roads authority and the totality of UK roads law and relevant precedents, particularly given that I think the roads authority would have completely failed in its statutory duty to sign the commencement of the 30mph limit. It's not totally out the question - but I think on the balance of probabilities, I'd need to be convinced that prosecutions like this have actually occurred either here or in similar situations, and I sincerely doubt that (not least because, again, I doubt any enforcement would take place). Therefore, I don't think the thousands of drivers who exceed 30mph on this section every day are meaningfully breaking the law, even if they are contravening the specific sections of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 that you've highlighted.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

Again Thanks for your engagement. You say
Therefore, I don't think the thousands of drivers who exceed 30mph on this section every day are meaningfully breaking the law, even if they are contravening the specific sections of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 that you've highlighted.[/quote]

If that is the case then, is it not also true that many, if not the majority of people who attend a SPEED AWARENESS courses (An average of approx. 1.2 million people a year in the 3 years up to 2020 each paying an average of £80 to £100 each, plus in most cases the cost of time off work) are also NOT meaningfully breaking the law when they drive their modern car along say, Mayo Avenue, Bradford which is a DC and even though they are driving at what they perceive is a safe speed of only 34 or 35 mph with no vehicle in front of them and none behind they are captured on Police Video and potentially prosecuted.!? Can they give your excuse? I think not!?
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7701442 ... 384!8i8192
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Bryn666
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Bryn666 »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:13 Again Thanks for your engagement. You say
Therefore, I don't think the thousands of drivers who exceed 30mph on this section every day are meaningfully breaking the law, even if they are contravening the specific sections of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 that you've highlighted.


If that is the case then, is it not also true that many, if not the majority of people who attend a SPEED AWARENESS courses (An average of approx. 1.2 million people a year in the 3 years up to 2020 each paying an average of £80 to £100 each, plus in most cases the cost of time off work) are also NOT meaningfully breaking the law when they drive their modern car along say, Mayo Avenue, Bradford which is a DC and even though they are driving at what they perceive is a safe speed of only 34 or 35 mph with no vehicle in front of them and none behind they are captured on Police Video and potentially prosecuted.!? Can they give your excuse? I think not!?
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7701442 ... 384!8i8192
[/quote]

The difference is driving along Mayo Avenue you have passed lawfully placed signs that give effect to a speed limit as per Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988: https://goo.gl/maps/SjQxoPikoWbczk789 and additional signs exist elsewhere to show the former 40 limits are now 30: https://goo.gl/maps/uGC1ZScsJsJPYcXf8

There are no such signs at M62 J22, and as such without the legally required signage to give effect to a traffic regulation order or speed limit no prosecutions can be upheld.

We have given you the answer, there has been a legal cock-up and it's incumbent on the highway authority to fix it; I suggest raising it with the relevant ward councillors and if you're still unhappy get the Halifax Courier involved.
Bryn
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She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

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jnty
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:13 If that is the case then, is it not also true that many, if not the majority of people who attend a SPEED AWARENESS courses (An average of approx. 1.2 million people a year in the 3 years up to 2020 each paying an average of £80 to £100 each, plus in most cases the cost of time off work) are also NOT meaningfully breaking the law when they drive their modern car along say, Mayo Avenue, Bradford which is a DC and even though they are driving at what they perceive is a safe speed of only 34 or 35 mph with no vehicle in front of them and none behind they are captured on Police Video and potentially prosecuted.!? Can they give your excuse? I think not!?
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7701442 ... 384!8i8192
Context is extremely important - the route you describe is clearly within a built up area, probably only accessible from other 30mph roads and presumably the surrounding area is signed in line with the relevant authority's legal duties. I agree that a speeding prosecution here would probably be foolish to contest, especially if you're being offered a speeding awareness course rather than points. The key details for your previous example which probably render the 30 limit unenforceable in practice are the complete lack of signage, the obviously rural nature of the road and the fact you're in the middle of an NSL section. None of those factors apply in your subsequent example, I don't think.

I have to wonder what your aim is here. Is this just a fun legal oddity you've spotted where you want to theoretically discuss the legal state of a given piece of road even though, in practice, it probably has no effect? If so, fine - mission certainly accomplished! Are you concerned that drivers might be caught for speeding in a completely unsigned 30mph limit, or worried you yourself might be caught? If so, I probably wouldn't worry given that it seems to have been OK all these years but if it really concerns you, you could write to the relevant authority asking them to get NSL repeaters lawfully put in place. Perhaps you believe the road should in fact be a 30? I'm not sure that's appropriate, but if you believe it is then legal pedantry is unlikely to get you lasting success - the design and layout of the road means that whatever the law says, people will still probably do the NSL. Even if you did manage to convince the authority/police that they should be enforcing/signing a 30mph limit, it's likely they'd rush a TRO to re-instate the NSL or a more appropriate higher speed as they clearly believe NSL is appropriate at the moment. Finally, if you're hoping to use this as some kind of precedent to overturn a speeding conviction on a road similar to the urban one you just linked, as I've already discussed, you're probably out of luck as the different contexts render them completely incomparable.
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What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

jnty wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:35
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 15:13 If that is the case then, is it not also true that many, if not the majority of people who attend a SPEED AWARENESS courses (An average of approx. 1.2 million people a year in the 3 years up to 2020 each paying an average of £80 to £100 each, plus in most cases the cost of time off work) are also NOT meaningfully breaking the law when they drive their modern car along say, Mayo Avenue, Bradford which is a DC and even though they are driving at what they perceive is a safe speed of only 34 or 35 mph with no vehicle in front of them and none behind they are captured on Police Video and potentially prosecuted.!? Can they give your excuse? I think not!?
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7701442 ... 384!8i8192
Context is extremely important - the route you describe is clearly within a built up area, probably only accessible from other 30mph roads and presumably the surrounding area is signed in line with the relevant authority's legal duties. I agree that a speeding prosecution here would probably be foolish to contest, especially if you're being offered a speeding awareness course rather than points. The key details for your previous example which probably render the 30 limit unenforceable in practice are the complete lack of signage, the obviously rural nature of the road and the fact you're in the middle of an NSL section. None of those factors apply in your subsequent example, I don't think.

I have to wonder what your aim is here. Is this just a fun legal oddity you've spotted where you want to theoretically discuss the legal state of a given piece of road even though, in practice, it probably has no effect? If so, fine - mission certainly accomplished! Are you concerned that drivers might be caught for speeding in a completely unsigned 30mph limit, or worried you yourself might be caught? If so, I probably wouldn't worry given that it seems to have been OK all these years but if it really concerns you, you could write to the relevant authority asking them to get NSL repeaters lawfully put in place. Perhaps you believe the road should in fact be a 30? I'm not sure that's appropriate, but if you believe it is then legal pedantry is unlikely to get you lasting success - the design and layout of the road means that whatever the law says, people will still probably do the NSL. Even if you did manage to convince the authority/police that they should be enforcing/signing a 30mph limit, it's likely they'd rush a TRO to re-instate the NSL or a more appropriate higher speed as they clearly believe NSL is appropriate at the moment. Finally, if you're hoping to use this as some kind of precedent to overturn a speeding conviction on a road similar to the urban one you just linked, as I've already discussed, you're probably out of luck as the different contexts render them completely incomparable.
Context is indeed very important here and so is the truth and better understanding of the law... My interest here is to have a debate which results in all learning something from their time invested. I have to date spoken with the Police who believe the road is NSL and that this means 60 mph for this section of DC !!.. I have spoken with so called Expert court witnesses sometime ex Police Officers who have said, no the A672 DC is 70 mph!!... this lack of consistency and understanding of law worries me and drives me to establish the truth.

I have been told this location is the County boundary road at which the Greater Manchester Road Traffic Police and the West Yorkshire Police turn around and head back onto their own areas. This being said I feel they themselves have failed in what could be 50 years to pick up on this legally 30 mph DC and have failed to apply for themselves the reading of the Street Lights that they expect motorists to know.

As an example...You refer to the route clearly being within a built up area, but how many people on this site or anywhere else know what a built up area is? Many Professional people here and other reasonable or potentially indoctrinated Police Officers, believe they know and may suggest for example that a built up area is one where there are roads junctions houses, businesses and maybe even children playing and other pedestrians. The answer is much simpler than than and shows why the context is for sure, very important and why contrary to your last comment, both roads are certainly linked as below will explain without the need for others to fall into the same hole.

How many on this website will dare to admit to NOT knowing the following: That the only reference which refers to a 'Built up area' in legislation is the RTA 1934 which states:
Road Traffic Act 1934
PART I.
REGULATION OF MOTOR VEHICLES.
  
1              General speed limit of thirty miles per hour in built up areas.
(1)    Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall not be lawful for any person to drive a motor vehicle on a road in a built up area at a speed exceeding thirty miles per hour.
For the purposes of this Act a length of road shall be deemed to be a road in a built up area-
(a)    if a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than two hundred yards apart is provided thereon
, unless a direction that it shall be deemed not to be a road in a built up area is in force under this section; or
(b)   if a direction that it shall be deemed to be a road in a built up area is in force under this section;
and not otherwise.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 16:23 Context is indeed very important here and so is the truth and better understanding of the law... My interest here is to have a debate which results in all learning something from their time invested. I have to date spoken with the Police who believe the road is NSL and that this means 60 mph for this section of DC !!.. I have spoken with so called Expert court witnesses sometime ex Police Officers who have said, no the A672 DC is 70 mph!!... this lack of consistency and understanding of law worries me and drives me to establish the truth.

That is pretty concerning on its own, as the NSL is undoubtedly 70mph through dual carriageways (for cars). I would very much hope that the police representative you spoke to was confused about the stretch of road in question and thought it was single carriageway!
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 16:23 I have been told this location is the County boundary road at which the Greater Manchester Road Traffic Police and the West Yorkshire Police turn around and head back onto their own areas. This being said I feel they themselves have failed in what could be 50 years to pick up on this legally 30 mph DC and have failed to apply for themselves the reading of the Street Lights that they expect motorists to know.
I don't think this would be an appropriate use of police resources given the intended limit is clearly NSL and, as discussed at length, any attempted prosecutions would almost certainly fail. I don't think it's reasonable to expect drivers to slow from 60 or 70 down to 30 every time they catch sight of a lamppost and I strongly suspect a court wouldn't either.
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 16:23 As an example...You refer to the route clearly being within a built up area, but how many people on this site or anywhere else know what a built up area is? Many Professional people here and other reasonable or potentially indoctrinated Police Officers, believe they know and may suggest for example that a built up area is one where there are roads junctions houses, businesses and maybe even children playing and other pedestrians. The answer is much simpler than than and shows why the context is for sure, very important and why contrary to your last comment, both roads are certainly linked as below will explain without the need for others to fall into the same hole.
I am using a built-up area as in its common usage, as in "an area such as a town or city which has a lot of buildings in it". I recognise there are specific legal definitions, but the overall presentation of the road is relevant firstly to determine the probable intent of the road authority and secondly to determine what details might lead a judge to determine it was or was not reasonable for a driver to understand that the law requires them to drive at 30mph in that location, if the absence of signage is genuinely insufficient to show this on its own.

This thread started with a story about speeding convictions being overturned in a clearly built-up area because an otherwise fully lawful speed restriction sign wasn't in the right font. Without referring to the letter of individual statutes and instead using common sense and thinking about how the law and courts in this country actually operate, do you genuinely believe a 30mph limit in this location would be enforceable, streetlights or not, without any signs at all?
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by Vierwielen »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 22:19
Vierwielen wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 21:51
WHBM wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 20:50 Has always been my perception that 200yd spacing of road lighting is still on the statute books as a 30mph limit, regardless of signage. For such a rural location one would expect NSL repeaters, but there are none.

In passing, I notice in Streetview at this point that there are many parked vehicles, probably left there all day, in the acceleration lanes on the A road. i would do them all for obstruction. It doesn't need a parking restriction to do that. Obstruction is a police matter rather than a local authority parking control. The acceleration lanes are provided precisely to assist safety with traffic turning into the dual carriageway.
Some councils turn their street lights off after midnight as an economy measure. Does this automatically annul the 30 mph implied speed limit - after all if the street light is not on after dark, you can't see it!
No. The deciding factor is the existence of a system of public lighting. The lights do not have to be switched on and they do not have to be streetlights - they just have to be lights provided as part of the public realm.

With regard to the question about this bit of the A672, I agree that the limit is 30, but I doubt that is the intention. The lack of terminal signs suggests that it's supposed to be NSL, but nobody has thought to provide NSL repeaters through the lit section.
One can hardly enforce a 30 mph speed limit if neither the street lights not the poles that support then are not visible!
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Chris5156 »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:01It has previously been suggested, that motorists would not (if placed in situ), heed any 30 mph Terminal Gateway signs. If this were true, they are surely missing out on what is a timely reminder of the 30 mph Speed Limit at this location to give motorists an AWARENESS OF THE SPEED rather than to be potentially caught out by a Video Van and they then have to endure a SPEED AWARENESS course to find that information out!?
I think the point of that statement was that erecting 30mph signs here would not magically make people drive at 30 through this junction. Most drivers select a speed based on their perception of the road ahead, and if that perception is wildly at variance with the posted limit then the posted limit tends not to be respected. I'm not claiming that is right or legal, but it is a true description of how many people drive. So whether or not the limit on the bit of road in question is technically 30, the facts remain that:
- there's no evidence that it was ever supposed to be 30
- it opened in 1972 at NSL, not 30
- the local authority do not intend for it to be 30
- the police do not regard that a 30 limit should be enforced
- nothing about the physical attributes of the road suggest that 30 is an appropriate speed
- a moment's observation of vehicles passing through the junction shows that few, if any, drivers are "reading" the road as being a 30 limit

What we have, then, is a situation where the local authority, back in the late 1970s, failed to apply a TRO when they installed street lighting, and ideally that needs to be corrected now by introduction of a TRO and installation of NSL repeater signs. As Bryn says, by all means approach Calderdale Council to get that rectified. You stand a decent chance of having this unusual situation normalised. But if your aim is to get 30 signs put up, and a 30 limit enforced, that is unrealistic and I don't think you should be optimistic about your chances.
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 14:07
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:45Answer: In view of my earlier post showing that the feeder roads to Motorways were seen in the report as 30mph. Are you able to post any evidence to the contrary that "The intention has always been that the road through here was national speed limit"?
What was written in an engineering report in 1969 before the M62 opened has no bearing on the actual situation on the ground today though. There has never been a policy of mandatory 30 limits at motorway junctions, this is a flight of fancy on the part of whoever wrote that report - the fact that when the M62 opened Junctions 23, 24, and 25 all had lit roundabouts and dual carriageway approaches which were all at the time signposted as national speed limit shows that J22 is just a situation of poor signing maintenance and can easily be rectified as part of the next Speed Limit Order to either reduce the speed limit on the A672 to restricted road by virtue of streetlighting, which is unlikely because of the fact nobody will adhere to it, or more likely to reduce the entire length from Ripponden to the Oldham boundary to 50 for route consistency purposes.
On this point, the line that was quoted from the 1963 report was "It has been assumed that the average speed of both classes of vehicle (Light and Heavy) will be 30mph". This was in an era, as you rightly say, when commercial vehicles often only reached top speeds between 30 and 40mph, so average speeds would indeed be reasonably low. But what it absolutely doesn't say is anything about setting a speed limit - it only offers a prediction of what average speeds might be. It is not evidence that a 30mph limit was intended on roads approaching the M62. And, whatever this might say, it was almost a decade before the motorway and its approaches were open to traffic, in which time a great deal of design work was done. When they opened to traffic, the feeder roads were not restricted to 30. Even those that have, since then, had lower speed limits applied, have not been restricted to a limit as low as 30.
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 20:45
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 22:19No. The deciding factor is the existence of a system of public lighting. The lights do not have to be switched on and they do not have to be streetlights - they just have to be lights provided as part of the public realm.
One can hardly enforce a 30 mph speed limit if neither the street lights not the poles that support then are not visible!
Which is why - to return us to the main thrust of this thread - for a 30 limit to be enforced, we expect terminal signs to indicate the start of the limit.
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What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

As there have been no further threads or suggestions other than a general agreement that the DC on the A672 at J22 of the M62 is legally 30 mph and that local authority (LA), which is Calderdale Council have failed to place gateway terminal signs at the two ends of the DC (or for that matter at the ends of the two slipways coming off J22 of the M62). I would now like to extend this debate amongst the vast array of motor enthusiasts, serving and ex Police Officers, Traffic Engineers, Councillors and Lawyers, who contribute to this valuable site by offering IMHO an alternative view in assistance to the much beleaguered LA being Calderdale Council.
So, whilst there are many areas of LA neglect on this DC, that that the Council could immediately improve upon, I am going to offer Calderdale Council a reprieve for this so called anomaly regarding the lack of gateway terminal signs to warn drivers that it is legally 30 mph on lit DC of the A672.
This is, that the two National Speed Limit applies (NSL) signs which are located one in Rishworth Village over 3 miles away from the DC and at other at the Calderdale Border with Oldham Council just a few hundred yards away from the DC, are sufficient, providing a driver understands the law and what are the various NSL speed limits for their type of vehicle.
The 3 National Speed Limits are clearly defined as follows:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... :~:text=21)%20The%20Highways%20Agency%20is,Agency%20and%20local%20traffic%20authorities
4) The overall speed limit framework, including the setting of national limits for different road types, and which exceptions to these general limits can be applied, is the responsibility of the government.
The three national speed limits are:
• the 30 mph speed limit on roads with street lighting (sometimes referred to as Restricted Roads)
• the national speed limit of 60 mph on single carriageway roads
• the national speed limit of 70 mph on dual carriageways and motorways
These national limits are not, however, appropriate for all roads. The speed limit regime enables traffic authorities to set local speed limits in situations where local needs and conditions suggest a speed limit which is different from the respective national speed limit.
This is clarified further by the following, which I have copied from the following location but restricted the text to just Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles for the purpose of this thread:
Speed limits - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
National speed limits
A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (48km/h) applies to all single and dual carriageways with street lights, unless there are signs showing otherwise.
Built-up areas mph (km/h) Single carriageways mph (km/h) Dual carriageways mph (km/h) Motorways mph (km/h)
Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles 30 (48) 60 (96) 70 (112) 70 (112)

If as I have stated in my earlier thread the only reference in legislation to ‘Built-up area’ is the following:
Road Traffic Act 1934
PART I.
REGULATION OF MOTOR VEHICLES.
1 General speed limit of thirty miles per hour in built up areas.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall not be lawful for any person to drive a motor vehicle on a road in a built up area at a speed exceeding thirty miles per hour.
For the purposes of this Act a length of road shall be deemed to be a road in a built up area-
(a) if a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than two hundred yards apart is provided thereon, unless a direction that it shall be deemed not to be a road in a built up area is in force under this section; or
(b) if a direction that it shall be deemed to be a road in a built up area is in force under this section;
and not otherwise.
Additionally consider the following:
Traffic Signs Manual – Chapter 3 - Regulatory Signs (publishing.service.gov.uk)
8.3 Repeater signs indicating maximum and national speed limits
8.3.1.  Whilst there is no specific requirement to provide repeater signs, it is for the traffic authority to determine how many are required and where they are placed. However, to ensure that drivers are fully aware of the speed limit in force it is recommended that repeater signs are provided at the intervals shown in Table 8-4 (see 8.3.4). Schedule 10 General Direction 2 prohibits the use of 30 mph repeater signs where a road has a system of carriageway lighting. Section 82 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 defines a lit road as being a “restricted road” (see 8.1.2). Section 81 specifies that the speed limit along such a road is 30 mph unless an order has been made to impose another limit and remove the restricted road status. The presence of carriageway lighting therefore means that a road automatically has a speed limit of 30 mph with the lamps taking the place of repeater signs. It is therefore important that, when lit roads have a speed limit other than 30 mph, repeater signs are provided at adequate intervals along the road as recommended in Table 8-4. Failure to do so could undermine confidence in the signing of all speed limits, as drivers have only the repeaters to tell them that the limit is not 30 mph. Where a speed limit, other than 30 mph, applies before and after the point where the carriageway lighting begins, a repeater sign should be placed in line with the first lamp; in most cases the sign would be mounted on the lighting column.

So now imagine a new driver who has read all this legislation and information and drives along the A672 from Denshaw in the Oldham Council area towards the direction of Rishworth in the Calderdale Council area. Please click the following link:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.62160 ... 384!8i8192
This driver will see 50mph roundel repeater signs on the Single Carriageway (SC) road, because a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) was approved by Oldham Council for this change from National Speed Limit (NSL) to be a safer 50 mph in 2003. (No doubt due in part to it being an area of national beauty, where some accidents had occurred and the existence of sheep and bends, not to mention the extreme weather in that area on the moors made this a sensible option for their rural SC).
When the driver reaches the border with Calderdale Council they see a set of gateway (meaning one either side of the road) NSL signs (these being a white circle with a black diagonal line). On passing these the road is still SC, but they increase their speed from 50 mph and drive at a maximum of 60 mph. Within 170 metres they see a ‘Dual Carriageway Ahead’ sign and immediately start to look for any possible change in the Speed Limit (as this Dual Carriageway Ahead sign indicates there “may” be a change of speed). They look and within 15 metres they see the first of 6 streetlights on the SC.
The streetlights are sited at less than 200 yards apart (In this case around 32 metres apart) and so they adjust their speed to 30 mph because they see this as one of the legitimate NSL speeds they are obliged to adhere to when they are in a built up area (See 1934 RTA). After the sixth streetlight, the SC road then changes to a DC, at which point the driver thinks for a moment and considers if this means it is now 70 mph on the DC, but then in a flash, immediately realises that it cannot be so, as the DC is not unlit; and that it must therefore be a maximum of 30 mph, because the streetlights continue along and down the hill to the end of the into the DC.
The driver remains at 30 mph adhering to the NSL sign, as there are no other Speed Limit signs on the DC. The driver correctly thinks there are no other Speed Limit signs in existence, because no TRO has ever been approved for this DC section of the road; and so it remains as an NSL of 30 mph. (a total system of 50 streetlights in total are sited on the nearside of the DC only section of this road, over a distance of approx. 800 metres (approx. half a mile), with 28 sited on one side and 22 on the opposite carriageway that heads back up the hill to Denshaw).
The driver knows from other roads that there are quite often gateway terminal roundel signs showing the speed limit in a number format on roads, particularly when an SC runs into a DC. However, they also understand from their reading, that this is not something that is required in law and indeed they have read the legislation that states, that if there are no other speed limit signs, then the existence of a system of streetlights at less than 200 yards apart makes the DC a ‘Restricted Road ‘and thereby 30 mph.
The driver continues along the DC at 30 mph as it runs down the steep hill which bends slightly and runs under a bridge that is supporting the M62 above it. As the drive they encounter along this DC, sheep at the side of the road, a DC Central Reservation, which is NOT raised by any kerb or separated by clear and visible continuous white lines. They also see 4 major road junctions within 100 yards of each other and see that the outside lane of the DC is specifically signed for turning right onto the Motorway as you near the bridge. (This is the same on both carriageways). The lane dividing white lines that are visible in the road show a pattern of long white lines with a short gap and the driver recognises from the Highway code and other reading that this signifies a hazard lies ahead, which could be the bend or road junctions which they have already noted.
This said they continue towards the underpass of the bridge in the inside first lane as this is the only suggested lane if they are to continue on to Rishworth. They pass by all the 4 junctions and then see a warning sign saying the DC will become a SC. Then the DC changes to SC, the system of streetlights ends and the SC is thereafter unlit, so on entering the SC they speed up to a maximum speed of 60 mph and continue towards Rishworth.
In this scenario the driver has correctly appreciated there are three NSL speed Limits applicable for their type of vehicle (this being an average car) and have correctly considered each one throughout this section of SC into DC and back out to a SC road. Correctly applying two of them along the way.
I argue that the need for terminal Speed Limit signs is actually ‘a nice to have’ and something that is extremely useful as drivers look for these to be sure of the Speed Limit, but these are not required in law and the road is adequately signed by streetlights in this “extremely rural yet built up area” and by the NSL signs found in situ for this section of the A672 road.
If you agree then please add to the thread and let me know….If you disagree then please evidence why? … as I have been expected to do throughout this thread!?
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by RichardA35 »

To be honest this was TL:DR - energies and efforts would be better directed to the LA in question, being as helpful and positive as possible given the complexity of the issue. That is, if you actually want a solution effected rather than just to debate the issue.
Only by direct contact will you have any chance of action being taken - venting or debating here (or Twitter or Facebook), while interesting, will only achieve very little as, in my experience, LA highway teams do not monitor web forums or social media.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23 The three national speed limits are:
• the 30 mph speed limit on roads with street lighting (sometimes referred to as Restricted Roads)
• the national speed limit of 60 mph on single carriageway roads
• the national speed limit of 70 mph on dual carriageways and motorways
Strictly speaking, 30mph is not the national speed limit for any type of road. TSRGD defines “national speed limit” as "any prohibition imposed on a road by the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) Order 1977(d) or by regulation 3 of the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limits) Regulations 1974(e)".

I agree that this term is sometimes used a bit loosely, but a strict interpretation is important because a "national speed limit applies" repeater is used to 'overrule' street lighting in situations like these (like here for example.)
Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23So now imagine a new driver who has read all this legislation and information
With respect, pretty much no driver does this nor should they be expected to. The sequence of events you go on to describe is extremely improbable. As a (presumably) regular user of that stretch of road, have you ever observed any non-turning driver voluntarily slowing to 30mph through that section?
Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23I argue that the need for terminal Speed Limit signs is actually ‘a nice to have’ and something that is extremely useful as drivers look for these to be sure of the Speed Limit, but these are not required in law
Terminal signs aren't a "nice to have". As the Traffic Signs Manual clarifies, TSRGD Schedule 10 General Direction 4 requires the placing of a terminal sign "as near as practicable to the point where the speed limit begins or ends." They are required in law - roads authorities have a legal duty to provide them. In practice, the limit is unenforceable if this duty is not fulfilled.

I would suggest that you: write a letter to the relevant roads authority noting this irregularity; file any correspondence you've received from official bodies thus far; and then proceed to drive at a safe sub-NSL speed through this section whenever you encounter it safe in the knowledge that, like the thousands of other people who presumably do so every day, you are almost certainly free from risk of prosecution.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

jnty wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 16:15
Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23 The three national speed limits are:
• the 30 mph speed limit on roads with street lighting (sometimes referred to as Restricted Roads)
• the national speed limit of 60 mph on single carriageway roads
• the national speed limit of 70 mph on dual carriageways and motorways
Strictly speaking, 30mph is not the national speed limit for any type of road. TSRGD defines “national speed limit” as "any prohibition imposed on a road by the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) Order 1977(d) or by regulation 3 of the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limits) Regulations 1974(e)".

I agree that this term is sometimes used a bit loosely, but a strict interpretation is important because a "national speed limit applies" repeater is used to 'overrule' street lighting in situations like these (like here for example.)
I can clearly see that you are trying to assist me here, so thank you for that. However, I have difficulty with your terms "Strictly speaking " and "sometimes used a bit loosely". Firstly, the 'National Speed Limits', that is all 3 of them, are clearly defined by the Government on their own website, https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits and endorsed on others too at https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/limit ... peed-limit

You refer to the TSRGD definition of "National Speed Limit" and that may well be correct in part, but is not law and only makes reference to the law. The Government appears to be clear in what they say the National Speed Limits are. Afterall, it is written on their own website, which is the nearest thing to law that we have to refer to, without it being written in statute and guides most of our lives be that tax, benefits or Covid info.
Further, the example you have given regarding a "national speed limit applies" repeater being used to 'overrule' street lighting is an example in Scotland and where they often have there own interpretations of the traffic law. If as I suspect, you give can me numerous other examples for England and Wales then I can only wonder, why if a TRO has been properly approved for this otherwise restricted road they have not simply used the diag. 670 which is a roundel with numbers thereon. As many drivers would still interpret the presence of that NSL sign on a lit road as 30 mph and believe that it may have been placed at regular intervals because the law specifically prevents the use of 30 mph repeaters on a lit road!?
jnty wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 16:15
Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23So now imagine a new driver who has read all this legislation and information
With respect, pretty much no driver does this nor should they be expected to. The sequence of events you go on to describe is extremely improbable. As a (presumably) regular user of that stretch of road, have you ever observed any non-turning driver voluntarily slowing to 30mph through that section?
With respect you are unable to say that no driver does this. Most are indoctrinated and often in the wrong way. I am simply giving an example of someone who relies on the law, and the highway code that both show these three, 30 mph, 60 mph and 70 mph, as being NSL !?
jnty wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 16:15
Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23I argue that the need for terminal Speed Limit signs is actually ‘a nice to have’ and something that is extremely useful as drivers look for these to be sure of the Speed Limit, but these are not required in law
Terminal signs aren't a "nice to have". As the Traffic Signs Manual clarifies, TSRGD Schedule 10 General Direction 4 requires the placing of a terminal sign "as near as practicable to the point where the speed limit begins or ends." They are required in law - roads authorities have a legal duty to provide them. In practice, the limit is unenforceable if this duty is not fulfilled.

I would suggest that you: write a letter to the relevant roads authority noting this irregularity; file any correspondence you've received from official bodies thus far; and then proceed to drive at a safe sub-NSL speed through this section whenever you encounter it safe in the knowledge that, like the thousands of other people who presumably do so every day, you are almost certainly free from risk of prosecution.
The terminal signs surely must be a "nice to have" on a 'Restricted Road' as the law states:
RTA 1984 - Section 85 (5) In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with [such a system of street or carriageway lighting], evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.
So, this means if they are not there, you can still be prosecuted for not reading the streetlights and this could very easily occur with possibly only a recommendation to the LA to put some terminal signs up!?
I will continue to drive this DC on the A672 road at the legal maximum 30 mph until the proposed TRO which is presently being addressed is implemented. Sincere thanks again for your engagement. :msnthumbsup:
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by WHBM »

It is indeed a conundrum that, on passing a first lamp post, how are you to know until you get to any second one whether they might be less than 200 yards apart, and if so what is the speed limit has been. However, that's how the regulation is. It worked pretty well from introduction in the 1934 Road Traffic Act.
the two National Speed Limit applies (NSL) signs which are located one in Rishworth Village over 3 miles away from the DC and at other at the Calderdale Border with Oldham Council just a few hundred yards away from the DC, are sufficient, providing a driver understands the law and what are the various NSL speed limits for their type of vehicle.
Not so, as I understand it. The "200 yards, lampposts, it's 30" regulation specifically states that the 30 applies unless there are regular repeaters for any different limit. Which is why other 40 or NSL illuminated stretches have regular repeaters, and why there is also specific legislation exempting Motorways from this requirement.
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by Fenlander »

Bog standard bit of A17 between Sutton Bridge & Kings Lynn, always enforced as single carriageway with a long splitter island for the junctions until the authorities decided they wanted Average Speed Camera enforcement. Suddenly they realised they are in actual fact short lengths of dual carriageway and that messes up the average speed calculations, the fix being to erect the 60 limits around these islands. The problem with that is it actually raises the limit for lorries, vans, trailers etc at a point where they're trying to control the speeds by using the SPECS cameras.

There were already NSL repeaters on the lighting at the junctions so the authorities had some understanding of needing to sign the specific limit there but couldn't seem to grasp the fact that more than just cars use the road.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 You refer to the TSRGD definition of "National Speed Limit" and that may well be correct in part, but is not law and only makes reference to the law. The Government appears to be clear in what they say the National Speed Limits are.
The TSRGD is secondary legislation passed by parliament; it is statute law. Deviation from it is unlawful without specific government authorisation. The highway code is a guide to interpretation of statute law and good driving; it is not statute law itself.
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 Afterall, it is written on their own website, which is the nearest thing to law that we have to refer to, without it being written in statute and guides most of our lives be that tax, benefits or Covid info.
While the highway code is clear on what the letter of the law says with respect to restricted roads, I don't think anything in a driver's general experience or education otherwise suggests they should be alert to the sudden presence of lamp posts as a signal to change speed alone. This is because roads authorities have a duty to ensure that this is never the case.

Clearly, if you arrive at a town where the 30 sign has fallen down, you should be expected to realise pretty quickly you ought to be doing 30, but the law requires that this situation should never happen or be very quickly rectified. I can't think of a single other place where the commencement of a 30mph limit is indicated by lighting alone, bar where the sign has been damaged or stolen, although I'd be interested to hear about any places you've encountered this.
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 As many drivers would still interpret the presence of that NSL sign on a lit road as 30 mph and believe that it may have been placed at regular intervals because the law specifically prevents the use of 30 mph repeaters on a lit road!?
I've never seen evidence of drivers making this mistake on roads signed in this way, not least because the road design of these roads rarely suggests any need to reduce speed. I can understand how someone who had never driven could become confused when reading, say, the highway code; but it is obvious after even a short amount of rural driving that 30 signs are always used at the start of restricted roads and NSL at the end to indicate either 60mph or 70mph for cars as appropriate as per the TSRGD. This is why the consistency provided by the TSRGD is so important. In many ways it's actually far more important to what actually happens on the roads than any document or law, because in unusual situations, people react out of habit and routine; they don't pull over and call a lawyer!
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 So, this means if they are not there, you can still be prosecuted for not reading the streetlights and this could very easily occur with possibly only a recommendation to the LA to put some terminal signs up!?
I'm not a road traffic lawyer but it would be an extremely bold judge who upheld a speeding conviction for an unlawfully signed restricted road which not even the Police acknowledge. There's also the practical difficulty that if the police don't think it's restricted, no prosecutions will take place. I would be fascinated however if you're aware of any convictions which have occurred in similar circumstances.
Fenlander wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 14:18 Suddenly they realised they are in actual fact short lengths of dual carriageway and that messes up the average speed calculations
A similar problem occurs on the A9 on a very short section of D1 around Pitlochry surrounded by S2. All the S2 sections are covered by average speed cameras and the positioning the cameras suggests this stretch is no exception. The experimental 50 limit for HGVs on the S2 part of this section of the A9 (introduced at the same time as the speed cameras) explicitly ends, so obviously someone has realised the significance of this bit. I don't know how they deal with it: whether they 'do the maths' (does the legislation for average speed cameras allow this?), just monitor the whole section as if it was 70 rather than 60, or just don't bother monitoring/prosecuting on that section at all.
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