As there have been no further threads or suggestions other than a general agreement that the DC on the A672 at J22 of the M62 is legally 30 mph and that local authority (LA), which is Calderdale Council have failed to place gateway terminal signs at the two ends of the DC (or for that matter at the ends of the two slipways coming off J22 of the M62). I would now like to extend this debate amongst the vast array of motor enthusiasts, serving and ex Police Officers, Traffic Engineers, Councillors and Lawyers, who contribute to this valuable site by offering IMHO an alternative view in assistance to the much beleaguered LA being Calderdale Council.
So, whilst there are many areas of LA neglect on this DC, that that the Council could immediately improve upon, I am going to offer Calderdale Council a reprieve for this so called anomaly regarding the lack of gateway terminal signs to warn drivers that it is legally 30 mph on lit DC of the A672.
This is, that the two National Speed Limit applies (NSL) signs which are located one in Rishworth Village over 3 miles away from the DC and at other at the Calderdale Border with Oldham Council just a few hundred yards away from the DC, are sufficient, providing a driver understands the law and what are the various NSL speed limits for their type of vehicle.
The 3 National Speed Limits are clearly defined as follows:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... :~:text=21)%20The%20Highways%20Agency%20is,Agency%20and%20local%20traffic%20authorities
4) The overall speed limit framework, including the setting of national limits for different road types, and which exceptions to these general limits can be applied, is the responsibility of the government.
The three national speed limits are:
• the 30 mph speed limit on roads with street lighting (sometimes referred to as Restricted Roads)
• the national speed limit of 60 mph on single carriageway roads
• the national speed limit of 70 mph on dual carriageways and motorways
These national limits are not, however, appropriate for all roads. The speed limit regime enables traffic authorities to set local speed limits in situations where local needs and conditions suggest a speed limit which is different from the respective national speed limit.
This is clarified further by the following, which I have copied from the following location but restricted the text to just Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles for the purpose of this thread:
Speed limits - GOV.UK (
www.gov.uk)
National speed limits
A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (48km/h) applies to all single and dual carriageways with street lights, unless there are signs showing otherwise.
Built-up areas mph (km/h) Single carriageways mph (km/h) Dual carriageways mph (km/h) Motorways mph (km/h)
Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles 30 (48) 60 (96) 70 (112) 70 (112)
If as I have stated in my earlier thread the only reference in legislation to ‘Built-up area’ is the following:
Road Traffic Act 1934
PART I.
REGULATION OF MOTOR VEHICLES.
1 General speed limit of thirty miles per hour in built up areas.
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall not be lawful for any person to drive a motor vehicle on a road in a built up area at a speed exceeding thirty miles per hour.
For the purposes of this Act a length of road shall be deemed to be a road in a built up area-
(a) if a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than two hundred yards apart is provided thereon, unless a direction that it shall be deemed not to be a road in a built up area is in force under this section; or
(b) if a direction that it shall be deemed to be a road in a built up area is in force under this section;
and not otherwise.
Additionally consider the following:
Traffic Signs Manual – Chapter 3 - Regulatory Signs (publishing.service.gov.uk)
8.3 Repeater signs indicating maximum and national speed limits
8.3.1. Whilst there is no specific requirement to provide repeater signs, it is for the traffic authority to determine how many are required and where they are placed. However, to ensure that drivers are fully aware of the speed limit in force it is recommended that repeater signs are provided at the intervals shown in Table 8-4 (see 8.3.4). Schedule 10 General Direction 2 prohibits the use of 30 mph repeater signs where a road has a system of carriageway lighting. Section 82 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 defines a lit road as being a “restricted road” (see 8.1.2). Section 81 specifies that the speed limit along such a road is 30 mph unless an order has been made to impose another limit and remove the restricted road status. The presence of carriageway lighting therefore means that a road automatically has a speed limit of 30 mph with the lamps taking the place of repeater signs. It is therefore important that, when lit roads have a speed limit other than 30 mph, repeater signs are provided at adequate intervals along the road as recommended in Table 8-4. Failure to do so could undermine confidence in the signing of all speed limits, as drivers have only the repeaters to tell them that the limit is not 30 mph. Where a speed limit, other than 30 mph, applies before and after the point where the carriageway lighting begins, a repeater sign should be placed in line with the first lamp; in most cases the sign would be mounted on the lighting column.
So now imagine a new driver who has read all this legislation and information and drives along the A672 from Denshaw in the Oldham Council area towards the direction of Rishworth in the Calderdale Council area. Please click the following link:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.62160 ... 384!8i8192
This driver will see 50mph roundel repeater signs on the Single Carriageway (SC) road, because a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) was approved by Oldham Council for this change from National Speed Limit (NSL) to be a safer 50 mph in 2003. (No doubt due in part to it being an area of national beauty, where some accidents had occurred and the existence of sheep and bends, not to mention the extreme weather in that area on the moors made this a sensible option for their rural SC).
When the driver reaches the border with Calderdale Council they see a set of gateway (meaning one either side of the road) NSL signs (these being a white circle with a black diagonal line). On passing these the road is still SC, but they increase their speed from 50 mph and drive at a maximum of 60 mph. Within 170 metres they see a ‘Dual Carriageway Ahead’ sign and immediately start to look for any possible change in the Speed Limit (as this Dual Carriageway Ahead sign indicates there “may” be a change of speed). They look and within 15 metres they see the first of 6 streetlights on the SC.
The streetlights are sited at less than 200 yards apart (In this case around 32 metres apart) and so they adjust their speed to 30 mph because they see this as one of the legitimate NSL speeds they are obliged to adhere to when they are in a built up area (See 1934 RTA). After the sixth streetlight, the SC road then changes to a DC, at which point the driver thinks for a moment and considers if this means it is now 70 mph on the DC, but then in a flash, immediately realises that it cannot be so, as the DC is not unlit; and that it must therefore be a maximum of 30 mph, because the streetlights continue along and down the hill to the end of the into the DC.
The driver remains at 30 mph adhering to the NSL sign, as there are no other Speed Limit signs on the DC. The driver correctly thinks there are no other Speed Limit signs in existence, because no TRO has ever been approved for this DC section of the road; and so it remains as an NSL of 30 mph. (a total system of 50 streetlights in total are sited on the nearside of the DC only section of this road, over a distance of approx. 800 metres (approx. half a mile), with 28 sited on one side and 22 on the opposite carriageway that heads back up the hill to Denshaw).
The driver knows from other roads that there are quite often gateway terminal roundel signs showing the speed limit in a number format on roads, particularly when an SC runs into a DC. However, they also understand from their reading, that this is not something that is required in law and indeed they have read the legislation that states, that if there are no other speed limit signs, then the existence of a system of streetlights at less than 200 yards apart makes the DC a ‘Restricted Road ‘and thereby 30 mph.
The driver continues along the DC at 30 mph as it runs down the steep hill which bends slightly and runs under a bridge that is supporting the M62 above it. As the drive they encounter along this DC, sheep at the side of the road, a DC Central Reservation, which is NOT raised by any kerb or separated by clear and visible continuous white lines. They also see 4 major road junctions within 100 yards of each other and see that the outside lane of the DC is specifically signed for turning right onto the Motorway as you near the bridge. (This is the same on both carriageways). The lane dividing white lines that are visible in the road show a pattern of long white lines with a short gap and the driver recognises from the Highway code and other reading that this signifies a hazard lies ahead, which could be the bend or road junctions which they have already noted.
This said they continue towards the underpass of the bridge in the inside first lane as this is the only suggested lane if they are to continue on to Rishworth. They pass by all the 4 junctions and then see a warning sign saying the DC will become a SC. Then the DC changes to SC, the system of streetlights ends and the SC is thereafter unlit, so on entering the SC they speed up to a maximum speed of 60 mph and continue towards Rishworth.
In this scenario the driver has correctly appreciated there are three NSL speed Limits applicable for their type of vehicle (this being an average car) and have correctly considered each one throughout this section of SC into DC and back out to a SC road. Correctly applying two of them along the way.
I argue that the need for terminal Speed Limit signs is actually ‘a nice to have’ and something that is extremely useful as drivers look for these to be sure of the Speed Limit, but these are not required in law and the road is adequately signed by streetlights in this “extremely rural yet built up area” and by the NSL signs found in situ for this section of the A672 road.
If you agree then please add to the thread and let me know….If you disagree then please evidence why? … as I have been expected to do throughout this thread!?