Old signs 'illegal'

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
Sizler
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:20

Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

jnty wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 15:39
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 You refer to the TSRGD definition of "National Speed Limit" and that may well be correct in part, but is not law and only makes reference to the law. The Government appears to be clear in what they say the National Speed Limits are.
The TSRGD is secondary legislation passed by parliament; it is statute law. Deviation from it is unlawful without specific government authorisation. The highway code is a guide to interpretation of statute law and good driving; it is not statute law itself.
Answer: How then are you to interpret this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... eed-limits

Street lighting
49. Direction 11 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
(TSRGD 2002), as amended, defines the requirements for the placing of
speed-limit repeater signs. This states that speed-limit repeater signs
cannot be placed along a road on which there is carriageway lighting not
more than 183 metres apart and which is subject to a 30 mph speed limit.
This direction applies regardless of how the speed limit has been imposed.
50. The Department will not make exceptions to this rule. This means it should
be assumed that, unless an order has been made and the road is signed
to the contrary, a 30 mph speed limit applies where there are three or
more lamps throwing light on the carriageway and placed not more than
183 metres apart.

Also later in the report, " The national speed limit on street lit roads is 30 mph.".
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 15:39
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 Afterall, it is written on their own website, which is the nearest thing to law that we have to refer to, without it being written in statute and guides most of our lives be that tax, benefits or Covid info.
While the highway code is clear on what the letter of the law says with respect to restricted roads, I don't think anything in a driver's general experience or education otherwise suggests they should be alert to the sudden presence of lamp posts as a signal to change speed alone. Clearly, if you arrive at a town where the 30 sign has fallen down, you should be expected to realise pretty quickly you ought to be doing 30, but the law requires that this situation should never happen or be very quickly rectified. I can't think of a single other place where the commencement of a 30mph limit is indicated by lighting alone, bar where the sign has been damaged or stolen, although I'd be interested to hear about any places you've encountered this.
Answer: You are saying that "I don't think anything in a driver's general experience or education otherwise suggests they should be alert to the sudden presence of lamp posts as a signal to change speed alone".
Well please tell that to the 1.2 million people a year that attend a Speed Awareness course where this point alone is laboured and is the biggest takeaway learning point of all. If you have not been on one then ask someone who has like a friend or a family member. Not many families are untouched by this course!
jnty wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 15:39
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 As many drivers would still interpret the presence of that NSL sign on a lit road as 30 mph and believe that it may have been placed at regular intervals because the law specifically prevents the use of 30 mph repeaters on a lit road!?
I've never seen evidence of drivers making this mistake on roads signed in this way, not least because the road design of these roads rarely suggests any need to reduce speed. I can understand how someone who had never driven could become confused when reading, say, the highway code; but it is obvious after even a short amount of rural driving that 30 signs are always used at the start of restricted roads and NSL at the end to indicate either 60mph or 70mph for cars as appropriate as per the TSRGD. This is why the consistency provided by the TSRGD is so important. In many ways it's actually far more important to what actually happens on the roads than any document or law, because in unusual situations, people react out of habit and routine; they don't pull over and call a lawyer!
Answer : Mayo Avenue, Bradford https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.76862 ... 384!8i8192

See also West Yorkshire Police Freedom of Information requestwhere some asked the following:

https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/sit ... 2030%20mph.
Our ref: 7232/19
On A6177 Mayo Avenue, Bradford, between Manchester Road and Rooley Lane I would like to know
how many motorist have received speeding fines at this location in the past year
During the period 01/11/2018 to 31/10/2019 there were 10,014 speeding offences detected on the
location requested.
Please note 1,464 of these have been cancelled for various reasons.
and what has been done to reduce these numbers?
West Yorkshire Police have recently put up signs at either end of Mayo Avenue in Bradford to remind
drivers they are on a 30 mph road. These signs are not mandatory signs but are there to give motorists
more information to indicate they are still on a 30 mph road, the fact that the road is a restricted road by
a series of street lights not more than 183 meters apart is the legal standing for the speed limit of 30
mph.

jnty wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 15:39
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:22 So, this means if they are not there, you can still be prosecuted for not reading the streetlights and this could very easily occur with possibly only a recommendation to the LA to put some terminal signs up!?
I'm not a road traffic lawyer but it would be an extremely bold judge who upheld a speeding conviction for an unlawfully signed restricted road which not even the Police acknowledge. There's also the practical difficulty that if the police don't think it's restricted, no prosecutions will take place. I would be fascinated however if you're aware of any convictions which have occurred in similar circumstances though.
I again will refer you to 10,014 speeding offences detected in just one year on the
location above.
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by jnty »

Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 17:06 Also later in the report, " The national speed limit on street lit roads is 30 mph.".

This is all getting very semantic; given you were previously exclusively referring to statute law, I was referring to statute law too. I agree that referring to 30mph as the "national speed limit" for restricted roads is common and it would be overly pedantic, in most cases, to object to this - but in statute law, and in terms of NSL signage, it is simply not how it is defined.
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 17:06 Answer: You are saying that "I don't think anything in a driver's general experience or education otherwise suggests they should be alert to the sudden presence of lamp posts as a signal to change speed alone".
Well please tell that to the 1.2 million people a year that attend a Speed Awareness course where this point alone is laboured and is the biggest takeaway learning point of all. If you have not been on one then ask someone who has like a friend or a family member. Not many families are untouched by this course!
Being aware of the presence of lamp posts is a good way of spotting if you've missed a 30mph sign; but the legal requirement to provide terminal signs acknowledges that a system of slamming on the brakes whenever a lamppost is spotted on a 70mph rural dual carriageway would be pretty unworkable, especially in the era of routine and accurate speed enforcement.
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 17:06 Answer : Mayo Avenue, Bradford https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.76862 ... 384!8i8192
I'm specifically talking about restricted roads which are not furnished with a 30mph sign when the NSL/a higher limit ceases to apply. I don't know if there's a specific entry point that you're referring to for this road where the terminal sign is missing, but this one seems to be well furnished with 30mph signs at the legally required points eg. here. It's also obviously of a completely different character to the example we're discussing, save for being a (lower standard) dual carriageway.
Sizler wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 17:06 West Yorkshire Police have recently put up signs at either end of Mayo Avenue in Bradford to remind
drivers they are on a 30 mph road.
The sign appears to be Diagram 7032 "NEW 30 MPH SPEED LIMIT IN FORCE" which TSRGD says can optionally be provided in the first 6 months of a new limit. In any case, this means this road is signed in excess of the legally required minimum standard, rather than below it, which is what I'm looking for.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Chris5156 »

Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23As there have been no further threads or suggestions other than a general agreement that the DC on the A672 at J22 of the M62 is legally 30 mph and that local authority (LA), which is Calderdale Council have failed to place gateway terminal signs at the two ends of the DC (or for that matter at the ends of the two slipways coming off J22 of the M62).
I don't believe there is general agreement about that on this thread. There is agreement that the limit on this section of dual carriageway is technically 30, but there is no agreement that there ought to be 30mph terminal signs at each end. There seem to be a number of members - including highway engineers, at least one of whom used to work for Calderdale Council - and non-members including the police officers you yourself have consulted - who agree that the road is supposed to be NSL and what's missing are a speed limit order and NSL repeaters attached to the streetlights. I am also in that camp.
I argue that the need for terminal Speed Limit signs is actually ‘a nice to have’ and something that is extremely useful as drivers look for these to be sure of the Speed Limit, but these are not required in law and the road is adequately signed by streetlights in this “extremely rural yet built up area” and by the NSL signs found in situ for this section of the A672 road.
I would say that your argument does not make sense. There is a hole in the logic.

Your claim seems to be that a driver approaching this location on the A672 would have passed an NSL sign some way back, and that since 30mph is a national speed limit, the lit section is covered by "national speed limit" and is 30. But that's not true, is it? Because if NSL repeater signs were attached to the streetlights, the limit through there would be unambiguously 70, not 30. Therefore that is not the meaning of those signs. It is never the meaning of those signs.

The situation would be the same as here on the A3 - a random example of a rural dual carriageway with lighting and NSL repeater signs. The limit here is 70 and not 30. If the NSL sign visble on the A3 meant 30mph when streetlights were present, the limit there, and on many other lit rural dual carriageways, would be 30, and it's not.

I think one point of confusion here is that there are two divergent meanings of "national speed limit".

One use, all lower case, is to distinguish speed limits that apply in general nationally - "national speed limits" - from local limits and vehicle class limits. These are 30, 60 and 70 depending on the circumstances, embracing both "restricted roads" which are 30 and "derestricted roads" which are 60 or 70.

A different use, capitalised, is the National Speed Limit, singular. The National Speed Limit is defined in law by The 70 Miles Per Hour, 60 Miles Per Hour and 50 Miles Per Hour (Temporary Speed Limit) (Continuation) Order 1978, which applies a general limit of 60mph on single carriageways and 70mph on dual carriageways that are "derestricted", i.e. once had no speed limit. It has no bearing on restricted roads. The NSL sign indicates that you are entering a length of derestricted road, one where a 60 or 70 limit will apply depending on circumstances. A different sign is required if you then leave the derestricted road and enter a length of restricted road.
Sizler
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:20

Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 16:12
Sizler wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 14:23As there have been no further threads or suggestions other than a general agreement that the DC on the A672 at J22 of the M62 is legally 30 mph and that local authority (LA), which is Calderdale Council have failed to place gateway terminal signs at the two ends of the DC (or for that matter at the ends of the two slipways coming off J22 of the M62).
I don't believe there is general agreement about that on this thread. There is agreement that the limit on this section of dual carriageway is technically 30, but there is no agreement that there ought to be 30mph terminal signs at each end. There seem to be a number of members - including highway engineers, at least one of whom used to work for Calderdale Council - and non-members including the police officers you yourself have consulted - who agree that the road is supposed to be NSL and what's missing are a speed limit order and NSL repeaters attached to the streetlights. I am also in that camp.
My sole intention in posting a thread here was to demonstrate that the A672 DC at J22 of M62 has in its present form a legal Maximum Speed Limit of 30 mph, because it is a ‘Restricted Road’. (For debate I offered some reasoning for that and also an alternative view regarding the ‘National Speed Limit Applies’ sign to try and assist the LA with some possible explanation for their failures, but there are none).

You refer to it being “technically 30”… Yet I have demonstrated that it is LEGALLY 30 mph.

As I said, I am not overly interested in what the Maximum Speed Limit is “supposed to be” or ought to be here. It’s clear we can debate what you think it should be forever. I am purely interested in what Maximum Speed Limit the present layout legally indicates to a motorist driving along this DC road; and that is unequivocally, a legal Speed of 30 mph because of the presence of 50 Streetlights in this 800 metre stretch of DC. If you can argue differently when there has never been a TRO in place for this DC a ‘Restricted Road’, to be changed, then please speak up and try.

My opinion is supported in Law and I have given enough examples in this thread, but here’s another.

RTA 1984 - Section 85 (5) In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with [such a system of street or carriageway lighting], evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.
[/quote]
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Chris5156 »

Sizler wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:42As I said, I am not overly interested in what the Maximum Speed Limit is “supposed to be” or ought to be here. It’s clear we can debate what you think it should be forever. I am purely interested in what Maximum Speed Limit the present layout legally indicates to a motorist driving along this DC road; and that is unequivocally, a legal Speed of 30 mph because of the presence of 50 Streetlights in this 800 metre stretch of DC. If you can argue differently when there has never been a TRO in place for this DC a ‘Restricted Road’, to be changed, then please speak up and try.
I think we can all agree that the current legal situation is that a 30mph limit applies and I don't dispute that. If everything else that's been discussed here is a diversion from that point then I'm sorry about that, but it's the nature of a discussion forum that people will discuss things and that the conversation will move on!

Having established that the limit is 30, which I think we all agreed on some time ago, what now?
Sizler
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:20

Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:42
Sizler wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:42As I said, I am not overly interested in what the Maximum Speed Limit is “supposed to be” or ought to be here. It’s clear we can debate what you think it should be forever. I am purely interested in what Maximum Speed Limit the present layout legally indicates to a motorist driving along this DC road; and that is unequivocally, a legal Speed of 30 mph because of the presence of 50 Streetlights in this 800 metre stretch of DC. If you can argue differently when there has never been a TRO in place for this DC a ‘Restricted Road’, to be changed, then please speak up and try.
I think we can all agree that the current legal situation is that a 30mph limit applies and I don't dispute that. If everything else that's been discussed here is a diversion from that point then I'm sorry about that, but it's the nature of a discussion forum that people will discuss things and that the conversation will move on!

Having established that the limit is 30, which I think we all agreed on some time ago, what now?
Nothing really, other than to thank you all for your time and efforts in contributing and leave you with this footnote.

In 2021 Calderdale Council attempted to process a TRO making the SC and DC parts in question into 50 mph and 'unfortunately' they failed to point out in the plan etc... that the DC was presently 'Legally 30 mph' and described it as presently NSL, when at the time they were fully aware of the DC being a 'Restricted Road'. I think you may call it 'Hoodwinking' the public and other Council Officials into believing they were reducing the whole road (for cars in this example) by 10 mph from NSL to 50 mph. When in fact they were fully aware that the DC part was 'Legally 30 mph' and the TRO's drawn out plan and written proposal should have indicated a proposed increase (for cars) of 20 mph to 50 mph on the DC section. It did not and I have picked them up on it and this has currently led to a deferral of the TRO pending a further report on the road. Although why they didn't immediately sign off the reduction of 10 mph (for cars) on both SC sections is a matter for them!?
Post Reply