Old signs 'illegal'

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Helvellyn
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Post by Helvellyn »

Mark Hewitt wrote: It shouldn't be the case IMO. Drivers have enough to think about with regard to regulatory signs having to understand and obey current signage, without having to know about all the signs which preceeded them!
I'd hope a bit of common sense would be applied (which rarely happens). That would be a valid reason if the sign is of a completely different design, but in this case it isn't, and it's hard to imagine that anyone could genuinely think it was supposed to mean anything other than what it does. Drivers think about speed limit signs as being numbers in red circles (NSL aside), and that's clearly what this is. I can't see any genuine cause for confusion, and it sounds all too much like getting off on a technicality when everyone knows and accepts that he was really in the wrong.
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Post by Mark Hewitt »

SubaruImprezaWRX wrote: I reckon :nsl: are simply to do with lack of poulation density - the actual type of road seems irrelevant.
It is. Actually I believe it's to do with property frontage etc. It's certainly nothing whatever to do with the quality of the road. Many country lanes etc are :nsl: but you'd struggle to get to 20mph.

It's all about what/who you are likely to hit if you leave the road, rather than the likelyhood of you leaving the road in the first place.
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SubaruImprezaWRX
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Post by SubaruImprezaWRX »

Quite. i.e. ending up in Farmer Giles' field.

NSL also ignores the fact of meeting farm traffic.

But let's face it, at least having NSLs on country lanes has the decency to let the driver apply common sense. (Fear slamming into an emerging tractor at 60, however...)
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Post by scynthius726 »

SubaruImprezaWRX wrote:
But let's face it, at least having NSLs on country lanes has the decency to let the driver apply common sense. (Fear slamming into an emerging tractor at 60, however...)
Com-mon... sense?

What is this strange concept of which you speak?
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Mark Hewitt
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Post by Mark Hewitt »

SubaruImprezaWRX wrote:Quite. i.e. ending up in Farmer Giles' field.

NSL also ignores the fact of meeting farm traffic.
As you should always drive at a speed where you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear. This is not a problem.
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Post by DavidBrown »

Helvellyn wrote:
Mark Hewitt wrote: It shouldn't be the case IMO. Drivers have enough to think about with regard to regulatory signs having to understand and obey current signage, without having to know about all the signs which preceeded them!
I'd hope a bit of common sense would be applied (which rarely happens). That would be a valid reason if the sign is of a completely different design, but in this case it isn't, and it's hard to imagine that anyone could genuinely think it was supposed to mean anything other than what it does. Drivers think about speed limit signs as being numbers in red circles (NSL aside), and that's clearly what this is. I can't see any genuine cause for confusion, and it sounds all too much like getting off on a technicality when everyone knows and accepts that he was really in the wrong.
I suppose common sense has to be applied. If someone sees a pre-worboys 'One way street ---->' sign, only someone deliberately disobeying that sign would go the wrong way. Of course, if cases like this 30 appear too often, that driver could have a "valid" excuse and get away with it.

What a world we live in... :o
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What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

I am trying to establish the legal Maximum Speed Limit on the A672 Dual Carriageway (DC), as it intersects J22 of the M62. As a layman I believe it to be 30mph because of the existence of Streetlighting sited at less than 200 yards along the entire DC, as well as the absence of any Maximum Speed Limit signs on this DC and the non existence of any Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) for this road. I can support my view with the 1984 Road Traffic Act. Does anyone else have any supporting or contrary views they would care to give? I will add there is a NSL sign on the two areas of Single Carriageway (SC) both are unlit roads, which are at either end of this DC, one a few hundred metres before the DC in the direction of Denshaw and the other over 3 miles before the DC as you come out of Rishworth.

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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by WHBM »

Has always been my perception that 200yd spacing of road lighting is still on the statute books as a 30mph limit, regardless of signage. For such a rural location one would expect NSL repeaters, but there are none.

In passing, I notice in Streetview at this point that there are many parked vehicles, probably left there all day, in the acceleration lanes on the A road. i would do them all for obstruction. It doesn't need a parking restriction to do that. Obstruction is a police matter rather than a local authority parking control. The acceleration lanes are provided precisely to assist safety with traffic turning into the dual carriageway.
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by Vierwielen »

WHBM wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 20:50 Has always been my perception that 200yd spacing of road lighting is still on the statute books as a 30mph limit, regardless of signage. For such a rural location one would expect NSL repeaters, but there are none.

In passing, I notice in Streetview at this point that there are many parked vehicles, probably left there all day, in the acceleration lanes on the A road. i would do them all for obstruction. It doesn't need a parking restriction to do that. Obstruction is a police matter rather than a local authority parking control. The acceleration lanes are provided precisely to assist safety with traffic turning into the dual carriageway.
Some councils turn their street lights off after midnight as an economy measure. Does this automatically annul the 30 mph implied speed limit - after all if the street light is not on after dark, you can't see it!
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by Vierwielen »

There was a technicallity about South Africa speed limit signs in the years immediately after they adopted the metric system. The minimum speed limit sign was identical to the sign used throughout Europe - a white numbe on a blue background. For some reason they decided to have their own colour schemes for various signs and the maximum speed limit sign was identical to the minimum speed limit sign apart from the red outer ring (as is seen throughout Europe, including the UK).

This worked fine for many years, then the signs got weather-beaten and the red ring lost its reflectiveness. On a dark night, it could not be seen so what was a maximum speed limit sign metamorphosed into a minimum speed limit sign.
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by Chris5156 »

Vierwielen wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 21:51
WHBM wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 20:50 Has always been my perception that 200yd spacing of road lighting is still on the statute books as a 30mph limit, regardless of signage. For such a rural location one would expect NSL repeaters, but there are none.

In passing, I notice in Streetview at this point that there are many parked vehicles, probably left there all day, in the acceleration lanes on the A road. i would do them all for obstruction. It doesn't need a parking restriction to do that. Obstruction is a police matter rather than a local authority parking control. The acceleration lanes are provided precisely to assist safety with traffic turning into the dual carriageway.
Some councils turn their street lights off after midnight as an economy measure. Does this automatically annul the 30 mph implied speed limit - after all if the street light is not on after dark, you can't see it!
No. The deciding factor is the existence of a system of public lighting. The lights do not have to be switched on and they do not have to be streetlights - they just have to be lights provided as part of the public realm.

With regard to the question about this bit of the A672, I agree that the limit is 30, but I doubt that is the intention. The lack of terminal signs suggests that it's supposed to be NSL, but nobody has thought to provide NSL repeaters through the lit section.
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What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

But surely to provide NSL repeaters through a 'Restricted Road' would first require a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) and there have been none at this location!?

Also this road layout is a 'Diamond Interchange' at J22 of the M62, with 4 major slip roads all within close proximity of each other. This IMHO is the reason the road is a 'Restricted Road'. Therefore 30mph was probably always the intention for safety reasons with many heavy goods vehicles potentially turning right at two of these junctions it would surely pose a danger to have vehicles travelling at any other speed than a maximum of 30 mph and certainly 60 or 70 mph would present an extreme danger!?
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Chris5156 »

Sizler wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 23:58Also this road layout is a 'Diamond Interchange' at J22 of the M62, with 4 major slip roads all within close proximity of each other. This IMHO is the reason the road is a 'Restricted Road'. Therefore 30mph was probably always the intention for safety reasons with many heavy goods vehicles potentially turning right at two of these junctions it would surely pose a danger to have vehicles travelling at any other speed than a maximum of 30 mph and certainly 60 or 70 mph would present an extreme danger!?
If 30mph is the intention then why are there no 30mph terminal signs? There are plenty of diamond interchanges around the country where the National Speed Limit applies. Here's one, for example, on the M6. These amount to priority junctions with good sightlines, which don't seem to present any more extreme danger than any other T-junction or crossroads on a rural NSL road.
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What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

I believe the DC with street lighting was constructed around 1969 to 1971 to facilitate entry on and off the new M62 in a safe manner. At that time many of the A roads leading to the Motorways were intended to be 30mph. I agree that Gateway terminal 30mph roundels would be a great way to inform the motorist, but I believe this is an oversight on a much forgotten road at the very edge of Calderdale Council's jurisdiction. Without these the existence of the 'Dual Carriageway ahead' sign at each end of the DC would suggest to me that the Single Carriageway (SC) rules end at that point and any motorist then has to look for other signs to let them know the Maximum Speed Limit. The only ones to be seen are the Streetlights at less than 200 yards and the existence of long white lines with smaller gaps indicating a hazard exists on the road, in this case that hazard is the other junctions to the motorway and a slight bend in the road maybe!?
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Chris5156 »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 00:43At that time many of the A roads leading to the Motorways were intended to be 30mph.
Is there evidence for this?
I agree that Gateway terminal 30mph roundels would be a great way to inform the motorist, but I believe this is an oversight on a much forgotten road at the very edge of Calderdale Council's jurisdiction.
They're not just a great way to inform the motorist, they're absolutely standard for any transition from NSL to a 30mph limit. Can you point to any place where an NSL road enters a 30 limit without terminal signs? There's definitely an oversight here, and I agree that the limit is de facto 30, but I don't believe the intention was to impose a 30mph limit.
Without these the existence of the 'Dual Carriageway ahead' sign at each end of the DC would suggest to me that the Single Carriageway (SC) rules end at that point and any motorist then has to look for other signs to let them know the Maximum Speed Limit.
That's not what that sign means. It carries no regulatory implications, it just means precisely what it says - there's a dual carriageway ahead.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Truvelo »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 00:43 ...and the existence of long white lines with smaller gaps indicating a hazard exists on the road, in this case that hazard is the other junctions to the motorway and a slight bend in the road maybe!?
The type of road marking doesn't matter but what does is the distance from the centre of one marking to the centre of the next. Speed limits 50mph and over have road markings based on a 9 metre distance whereas 40mph and below have reduced line lengths and spacing. Even this is not conclusive as councils sometimes use the wrong length system for the speed limit.
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What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

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Chris5156 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 02:28
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 00:43At that time many of the A roads leading to the Motorways were intended to be 30mph.
Is there evidence for this?
Answer: I can only refer to a report named 'Lancashire-Yorkshire Motorway' believed from 1963 by the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire, namely the Chairman of the Highways Committee and his Vice Chairman along with the County Engineer and Surveyor and printed by Chorley and Pickersgill Limited of Leeds. On page 103 when referring to a sub title under Motorways called 'VEHICLE SPEEDS ON FEEDER ROUTES' the report states that " It has been assumed that the average speed of both classes of vehicle (Light and Heavy) will be 30mph.... The report shows many interesting numbers particularly that the average speed observed at the time on the M1 Motorway was 59 mph for cars and 37 mph for commercial vehicles. This may go some way to giving a reason for the Gateway terminal signs not being placed if the feeder road of the A672 was already 30mph!?
I agree that Gateway terminal 30mph roundels would be a great way to inform the motorist, but I believe this is an oversight on a much forgotten road at the very edge of Calderdale Council's jurisdiction.
They're not just a great way to inform the motorist, they're absolutely standard for any transition from NSL to a 30mph limit. Can you point to any place where an NSL road enters a 30 limit without terminal signs? There's definitely an oversight here, and I agree that the limit is de facto 30, but I don't believe the intention was to impose a 30mph limit.
Answer: I agree in general you would have Gateway terminal 30 mph signs there is no doubt an oversight in this area by Calderdale Council but for 5o years!?. It appears that this section of Dual Carriageway on the outer edge of the LA's jurisdiction has long been forgotten and over the past 50 years that results in it currently baring the scars of that mistreatment with existing and dangerous street furniture, poor line marking and non existent Speed Limit roundels etc....
Without these the existence of the 'Dual Carriageway ahead' sign at each end of the DC would suggest to me that the Single Carriageway (SC) rules end at that point and any motorist then has to look for other signs to let them know the Maximum Speed Limit.
That's not what that sign means. It carries no regulatory implications, it just means precisely what it says - there's a dual carriageway ahead.
Answer: My understanding is taken from The Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 section 4.7.1 which states,"... At the start of a dual carriageway, it (meaning a keep left or keep right sign) may be accompanied by a plate with the legend “Dual carriageway”. This plate is particularly important on roads subject to the national speed limit to indicate that different speed limits may now apply.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Bryn666 »

Truvelo wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 03:42
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 00:43 ...and the existence of long white lines with smaller gaps indicating a hazard exists on the road, in this case that hazard is the other junctions to the motorway and a slight bend in the road maybe!?
The type of road marking doesn't matter but what does is the distance from the centre of one marking to the centre of the next. Speed limits 50mph and over have road markings based on a 9 metre distance whereas 40mph and below have reduced line lengths and spacing. Even this is not conclusive as councils sometimes use the wrong length system for the speed limit.
This hasn't been the case since 2016, because it was realised using the 9m lining module on narrow country lanes looks absolutely stupid.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Bryn666 »

Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 09:08
Chris5156 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 02:28
Sizler wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 00:43At that time many of the A roads leading to the Motorways were intended to be 30mph.
Is there evidence for this?
Answer: I can only refer to a report named 'Lancashire-Yorkshire Motorway' believed from 1963 by the County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire, namely the Chairman of the Highways Committee and his Vice Chairman along with the County Engineer and Surveyor and printed by Chorley and Pickersgill Limited of Leeds. On page 103 when referring to a sub title under Motorways called 'VEHICLE SPEEDS ON FEEDER ROUTES' the report states that " It has been assumed that the average speed of both classes of vehicle (Light and Heavy) will be 30mph.... The report shows many interesting numbers particularly that the average speed observed at the time on the M1 Motorway was 59 mph for cars and 37 mph for commercial vehicles. This may go some way to giving a reason for the Gateway terminal signs not being placed if the feeder road of the A672 was already 30mph!?
I agree that Gateway terminal 30mph roundels would be a great way to inform the motorist, but I believe this is an oversight on a much forgotten road at the very edge of Calderdale Council's jurisdiction.
They're not just a great way to inform the motorist, they're absolutely standard for any transition from NSL to a 30mph limit. Can you point to any place where an NSL road enters a 30 limit without terminal signs? There's definitely an oversight here, and I agree that the limit is de facto 30, but I don't believe the intention was to impose a 30mph limit.
Answer: I agree in general you would have Gateway terminal 30 mph signs there is no doubt an oversight in this area by Calderdale Council but for 5o years!?. It appears that this section of Dual Carriageway on the outer edge of the LA's jurisdiction has long been forgotten and over the past 50 years that results in it currently baring the scars of that mistreatment with existing and dangerous street furniture, poor line marking and non existent Speed Limit roundels etc....
Without these the existence of the 'Dual Carriageway ahead' sign at each end of the DC would suggest to me that the Single Carriageway (SC) rules end at that point and any motorist then has to look for other signs to let them know the Maximum Speed Limit.
That's not what that sign means. It carries no regulatory implications, it just means precisely what it says - there's a dual carriageway ahead.
Answer: My understanding is taken from The Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 section 4.7.1 which states,"... At the start of a dual carriageway, it (meaning a keep left or keep right sign) may be accompanied by a plate with the legend “Dual carriageway”. This plate is particularly important on roads subject to the national speed limit to indicate that different speed limits may now apply.
As others have said, there are only two ways to enforce a speed limit and that is to have a correct speed limit order and/or corresponding terminal signs. The intention has always been that the road through here was national speed limit, there just have not been the correct signs/orders put in place to do that. A 30 mph speed limit will be completely ignored by drivers here, I would have thought that given Oldham have reduced their length of the A672 to 50 mph that Calderdale will eventually follow suit but it is not seen as a priority as the A672 has an acceptable safety record for the type of road it is. This issue was raised in 2009 when I worked at CMBC but there were other roads with serious problems that needed to be addressed first. M62 J22 and approaches was never on the sites for concern list.

The traffic signs manual is simply guidance and has no bearing on speed limit setting; the legalities are set out in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and subsequent amendments.
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Re: What is the legal speed on the A672 Dual Carriageway

Post by Sizler »

[/quote]As others have said, there are only two ways to enforce a speed limit and that is to have a correct speed limit order and/or corresponding terminal signs. The intention has always been that the road through here was national speed limit, there just have not been the correct signs/orders put in place to do that. A 30 mph speed limit will be completely ignored by drivers here, I would have thought that given Oldham have reduced their length of the A672 to 50 mph that Calderdale will eventually follow suit but it is not seen as a priority as the A672 has an acceptable safety record for the type of road it is. This issue was raised in 2009 when I worked at CMBC but there were other roads with serious problems that needed to be addressed first. M62 J22 and approaches was never on the sites for concern list.
[/quote]

Answer: In view of my earlier post showing that the feeder roads to Motorways were seen in the report as 30mph. Are you able to post any evidence to the contrary that "The intention has always been that the road through here was national speed limit"?

I think given the issue was raised over 10 years ago then Calderdale MBC have not fulfilled this and many more their obligations at this location. Please see the state of the rusted and disintegrated dangerous barrier sited under the bridge heading towards Denshaw on A672 DC. I was thinking of posting it for picture of the month or should that be decade!?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.62974 ... 384!8i8192[/b]

The traffic signs manual is simply guidance and has no bearing on speed limit setting; the legalities are set out in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and subsequent amendments.
[/quote]
Answer: I am not saying the Traffic Signs Manual has a bearing on Speed Limit Setting. But, I am saying the presence of the 'Dual Carriageway Ahead 'sign means more than just that and indicates that a change of speed MAY lay ahead. In this case the A672 change is from NSL to 30mph with the presence of streetlights throughout the DC. The use of the word May is no doubt used in the manual because it likely that on other roads the single carriageway preceding the lit DC could also have streetlights and be 30 mph and therefore in that instance there is no change of speed 30mph into 30mph when entering a lit DC!?
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