Old signs 'illegal'

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PeterA5145
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Post by PeterA5145 »

boing_uk wrote:
PeterA5145 wrote:If the sign is incorrect, it is invalid, and the enforceable limit reverts to NSL.
Which, if the area is street lit to the appropriate standards, is 30mph.
Nope, if you pass from a NSL zone to a 30, in a streetlit area, if the 30 mph terminal signs are missing, 30 mph is unenforceable.
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Helvellyn
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Post by Helvellyn »

Still sounds like technicalities over common sense to me.
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Post by SubaruImprezaWRX »

PeterA5145 wrote:
boing_uk wrote:
PeterA5145 wrote:If the sign is incorrect, it is invalid, and the enforceable limit reverts to NSL.
Which, if the area is street lit to the appropriate standards, is 30mph.
Nope, if you pass from a NSL zone to a 30, in a streetlit area, if the 30 mph terminal signs are missing, 30 mph is unenforceable.

Legally speaking, no. But then you're not going to steam through a busy residential area at 60. (unless you're a vectra-driving sales rep :wink: )
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Post by jcpren »

PeterA5145 wrote:
boing_uk wrote:Which, if the area is street lit to the appropriate standards, is 30mph.
Nope, if you pass from a NSL zone to a 30, in a streetlit area, if the 30 mph terminal signs are missing, 30 mph is unenforceable.
But the NSL in a built-up area (as indicated by streetlights) is 30mph, is it not? :?
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Post by Steven »

jcpren wrote:
PeterA5145 wrote:
boing_uk wrote:Which, if the area is street lit to the appropriate standards, is 30mph.
Nope, if you pass from a NSL zone to a 30, in a streetlit area, if the 30 mph terminal signs are missing, 30 mph is unenforceable.
But the NSL in a built-up area (as indicated by streetlights) is 30mph, is it not? :?
Mmm, yeah. But that only means that you don't have to (and indeed are not allowed to!) have 30 repeaters.

Technically, you'd probably get off. Of course, that doesn't mean to say that you don't deserve to have the book thrown at you if you do something ridiculous.
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Post by Jam35 »

Steven wrote:Technically, you'd probably get off. Of course, that doesn't mean to say that you don't deserve to have the book thrown at you if you do something ridiculous.
They'd probably have done better to prosecute him for one or more of the following:
CD10 Driving without due care and attention
CD20 Driving without reasonable consideration for other road users
CD30 Driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users
DD40 Dangerous Driving
MS50 Motor racing on the highway
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Post by jcpren »

Steven wrote:
jcpren wrote:But the NSL in a built-up area (as indicated by streetlights) is 30mph, is it not? :?
Mmm, yeah. But that only means that you don't have to (and indeed are not allowed to!) have 30 repeaters.
I've been thinking about this a bit further, and now I've got myself confused!

See speed limits here: http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103

In England and Wales, should the speed limit be 30mph on A-class lit dual carriageways that display NSL signs/repeaters? That is what the above page seems to suggest. Indeed, could the NSL sign be used in any built-up area to indicate that the maximum speed limit is 30mph?
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Post by sotonsteve »

jcpren wrote:In England and Wales, should the speed limit be 30mph on A-class lit dual carriageways that display NSL signs/repeaters? That is what the above page seems to suggest. Indeed, could the NSL sign be used in any built-up area to indicate that the maximum speed limit is 30mph?
Please no! I want to think of the NSL sign as a nice sign, and not one that restricts me to 30mph on an undeveloped D2 with Truvelos!
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Post by sotonsteve »

PeterA5145 wrote:
boing_uk wrote:
PeterA5145 wrote:If the sign is incorrect, it is invalid, and the enforceable limit reverts to NSL.
Which, if the area is street lit to the appropriate standards, is 30mph.
Nope, if you pass from a NSL zone to a 30, in a streetlit area, if the 30 mph terminal signs are missing, 30 mph is unenforceable.
But the fact that there aren't any repeaters makes the road 30mph anyway. I've seen missing terminal signs before, but they were for increasing the speed limit out of the urban area :evil:
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Post by a228_mb »

An NSL sign on any single carriageway road indicates a max speed (for cars) of 60mph and 70mph on any dual carriageway lit or unlit. The whole thing regarding streetlights = 30 is basically a reminder; i.e. you can't remember what the last speed limit sign you saw was and there is a scamera ahead, you do 30 until you pass a different sign. Also coming out of premises or side roads, there are no repeaters so if there are streetlights you assume 30 unless signs indicate otherwise.
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Post by Ritchie333 »

Heaven forbid anybody might use common sense to judge the appropriate speed for the road.... :wink:
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Re: Old signs 'illegal'

Post by luchar »

DavidBrown wrote:Political Correctness gone mad...

BBC News

How on earth can you mistake an old 3 for a 5? Even if you did make that mistake, why was that teacher doing 60mph? :?

The article claims the signs are faulty. They're not, they're just old. Because of this, some old relics have been replaced. :evil:
I don't understand this... in a urban area, you don't drive 90km/h! It's foolish! And the good reason "I've mistaken the 3 for a 5" is bull. They should have had to pay their fines!
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Post by jcpren »

a228_mb wrote:An NSL sign on any single carriageway road indicates a max speed (for cars) of 60mph and 70mph on any dual carriageway lit or unlit. The whole thing regarding streetlights = 30 is basically a reminder; i.e. you can't remember what the last speed limit sign you saw was and there is a scamera ahead, you do 30 until you pass a different sign. Also coming out of premises or side roads, there are no repeaters so if there are streetlights you assume 30 unless signs indicate otherwise.
But there is a paragraph on the page I linked to that states:

The 30 mph limit applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show otherwise,

which makes it sound that 30mph exists as a NSL, rather than orders having to be passed for all built-up areas individually to make them 30mph.

I'm not trying to be awkward, as I'm sure you're right from what we all see in practice, but I'm just trying to untangle what the legal reality actually is.

Is it the case, then, that for cars in England and Wales:

* Pre-set speed limits of 60mph and 70mph exist. These are referred to as National Speed Limits and may be signed by the NSL sign.

* Another pre-set limit of 30mph exists. It is not called the National Speed Limit, and cannot be signed using the NSL sign. No repeaters are required in sufficiently well-lit areas.

* If a sufficiently well-lit road has NSL repeaters, then it takes the default 60/70mph NSL depending on whether it is a single or dual carriageway, but if it has no repeaters, it takes the "other" default speed limit of 30mph.

:?:
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Post by DavidBrown »

If I have time over the coming week, I might have a trip down to south Devon to see what the A379 is like along there, and to see if there are any old 30 signs left. I'll obviously take my camera so you can judge for yourselves. :wink:
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Post by a228_mb »

[Pedantic] There is an NSL S2 near me (60mph) but with streetlights and no NSL repeaters. Therefore during the day its a 30 limit? But at night the lights don't work and you can't see them (they are in hedges) therefore the limit is 60! [/Pedantic]
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Post by a228_mb »

Clearly the main problem is in urban areas but tbh its a matter of common sense. You should drive accordingly. Image For example here although the limit is 60, it would be inappropriate to do so. If you insist ondoing 60 through here, you may not be speeding but you should be done for dangerous driving.
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Post by DavidBrown »

That road's NSL?!! :shock:

Where is it? How old is that picture? I would never have thought that NSL limits in areas as built-up as that still existed!
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Post by a228_mb »

Borrowed from Peter's site, it was in 2005 on the A6 in Over Hulton near Bolton.
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Post by PeterA5145 »

a228_mb wrote:Borrowed from Peter's site, it was in 2005 on the A6 in Over Hulton near Bolton.
The photo was originally taken by Truvelo in about 1999, but the NSL is still there AFAIK (it certainly was late last year).

The picture exaggerates how built-up it is, but even so it is surprising not to see it as a 40 at most.

It's here.

Also see this thread for some more surprisingly built-up NSLs:

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/vie ... php?t=1629
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Post by Steven »

jcpren wrote:Is it the case, then, that for cars in England and Wales:

* Pre-set speed limits of 60mph and 70mph exist. These are referred to as National Speed Limits and may be signed by the NSL sign.

* Another pre-set limit of 30mph exists. It is not called the National Speed Limit, and cannot be signed using the NSL sign. No repeaters are required in sufficiently well-lit areas.

* If a sufficiently well-lit road has NSL repeaters, then it takes the default 60/70mph NSL depending on whether it is a single or dual carriageway, but if it has no repeaters, it takes the "other" default speed limit of 30mph.

:?:
That sounds about right to me. However, for the limit change to be enforcable, the proper terminator signage must exist.

If, of course, a limit is changed on a road, and an NSL repeater is accidentally left on a road, then all hell will break loose! (And if you think I'm making it up - I've seen this happen...)
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