A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

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ellandback
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by ellandback »

jackal wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:32 "With the decision on the first dualling of the A64 for over forty years due in January, Filey's MP Kevin Hollinrake has arranged for Roads Minister, Baroness Vere, to travel down the A64 to see first-hand the dire need for upgrading and to meet with the A64 Growth Partnership to make sure all local voices are being heard.
I imagine it would have better helped his case if he had invited her to travel on a summer Saturday, but at least he's trying.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by jgharston »

In the last few weeks instead of the A169 I've been travelling via the B1258 east of Rillington, and there's been loads of road maintainance vehicle parked on the land bank opposite the junction. Does anybody know what this is related to? I thought it might be a parking area for the vehicles doing the maintainance on the Malton bypass, but they'd have to be trekking through the village to get to the work site.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by NICK 647063 »

In the last few weeks instead of the A169 I've been travelling via the B1258 east of Rillington, and there's been loads of road maintainance vehicle parked on the land bank opposite the junction. Does anybody know what this is related to? I thought it might be a parking area for the vehicles doing the maintainance on the Malton bypass, but they'd have to be trekking through the village to get to the work site.
It’s part of £22 million works on the A64 they are widening the A64 at the location you mentioned to provide right turn lanes into the B1258, east and west Knapton and a caravan park.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Rillington »

Are there any updates on this, and also any updates on the proposals to dual the A64 east of Hop Grove?
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by NICK 647063 »

Well although we were told the route options would be announced this year the scheme is now moved into Roads period 3, the scheme is now GSJ and dualling east of Hopgrove, the latest news was the dualling was going to cost over £250 million as all the side roads needed GSJ’s or bridges as when the traffic assessments were done and traffic modelling they realised that many motorists actually avoided the A64 and it would attract these back meaning the design had to be able to cope with the A64 real traffic levels including all those who currently avoid it, the current scheme leaves 3 miles of S2 between Welburn and Malton which will be a huge bottleneck.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Stevie D »

NICK 647063 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 22:52 Well although we were told the route options would be announced this year the scheme is now moved into Roads period 3, the scheme is now GSJ and dualling east of Hopgrove, the latest news was the dualling was going to cost over £250 million as all the side roads needed GSJ’s or bridges as when the traffic assessments were done and traffic modelling they realised that many motorists actually avoided the A64 and it would attract these back meaning the design had to be able to cope with the A64 real traffic levels including all those who currently avoid it, the current scheme leaves 3 miles of S2 between Welburn and Malton which will be a huge bottleneck.
Genius! We have a scheme to improve a road that is busy. No, wait! It's too busy so we can't improve it at all! :roll:
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Bryn666 »

Stevie D wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:49
NICK 647063 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 22:52 Well although we were told the route options would be announced this year the scheme is now moved into Roads period 3, the scheme is now GSJ and dualling east of Hopgrove, the latest news was the dualling was going to cost over £250 million as all the side roads needed GSJ’s or bridges as when the traffic assessments were done and traffic modelling they realised that many motorists actually avoided the A64 and it would attract these back meaning the design had to be able to cope with the A64 real traffic levels including all those who currently avoid it, the current scheme leaves 3 miles of S2 between Welburn and Malton which will be a huge bottleneck.
Genius! We have a scheme to improve a road that is busy. No, wait! It's too busy so we can't improve it at all! :roll:
Unfortunately this is the very real problem of induced demand - Braess' Paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox

We know the problem with Hopgrove is the exit from it is incapable of handling the traffic merging into a single lane. Even the aerial photography on Google shows a queue here. Because Hopgrove is a signal junction due to the right turn from the A64 westbound to A1237 westbound, this immediately means you need stacking lanes for the signals which means more lanes into the bottleneck beyond - the extra width is therefore the failure.

To me the obvious fix is to replace the roundabout with a trumpet GSJ. That way you can manage the traffic flow by keeping the queue on the dualled bit of the A64 by separating the A1237/A64 flows (lane drop at the GSJ) and not having platoons of traffic scramble for a single lane beyond the roundabout. You can then have either a signal controlled merge into the single carriageway to the north where the A1237 rejoins, or if modelling says a conventional merge, that. There'll still be some queuing but I expect overall throughput to be better than having everybody stop for the oncoming right turn as now.

That then allows messing about with future dualling to be done at leisure. If Hopgrove is merely turned into a GSJ roundabout the same traffic flow conflicts will remain and queues will inevitably spill back onto the A64 anyway, defeating the point.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Herned »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 13:09 To me the obvious fix is to replace the roundabout with a trumpet GSJ. That way you can manage the traffic flow by keeping the queue on the dualled bit of the A64 by separating the A1237/A64 flows (lane drop at the GSJ) and not having platoons of traffic scramble for a single lane beyond the roundabout. You can then have either a signal controlled merge into the single carriageway to the north where the A1237 rejoins, or if modelling says a conventional merge, that. There'll still be some queuing but I expect overall throughput to be better than having everybody stop for the oncoming right turn as now.
But that wouldn't allow access to the inevitable development sites east of the A64, so no chance!
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by NICK 647063 »

The trouble is the A64 backs up from around Towthorpe lane or sand Hutton and queues right back to the merge after the hopgrove this then backs up onto the hopgrove, personally after years of using this section of A64 the roundabout isn’t the issue or the traffic signals it’s simply the lack of capacity eastwards, that’s why all the focus is on getting the dualling done as the hopgrove would still function ok and the queues would be removed with the dualling....

It’s quite interesting that the A64 Hopgrove roundabout is the most congested Junction in the whole of Yorkshire considering we have some major motorways and Junctions, I suspect this year it will massively stand out as a congestion hotspot as all the roads are quieter with covid yet the A64 is as busy as normal if not worse with extra holiday traffic and people staying in this country, the A64 has been congested pretty much all day yet the motorways seem a bit quieter as many are still working from home.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by 85CF380 »

As an infrequent visitor to Scarborough over the last few decades because the A64 is such a toil, I took a punt & pottered to the resort yesterday. There was a decent queue at Hopgrove, just short of the last approaching curve, luckily, I was only doing a shameful 70, but it did give the brakes a good test. We then the struggled through the junction. HE maybe right that the junction can cope, but they need to dual the next section. Dualling with a couple more roundabouts would be an major improvement even if they can't afford GSJ. On the return we were queuing passing Claxton/Sand Hutton but rolling fine by Hopgrove, possibly due to too much turning traffic.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by NICK 647063 »

As an infrequent visitor to Scarborough over the last few decades because the A64 is such a toil, I took a punt & pottered to the resort yesterday. There was a decent queue at Hopgrove, just short of the last approaching curve, luckily, I was only doing a shameful 70, but it did give the brakes a good test. We then the struggled through the junction. HE maybe right that the junction can cope, but they need to dual the next section. Dualling with a couple more roundabouts would be an major improvement even if they can't afford GSJ. On the return we were queuing passing Claxton/Sand Hutton but rolling fine by Hopgrove, possibly due to too much turning traffic.
Highways England send out a very nice leaflet to all people who live along the A64 keeping us updated on the ongoing works, on the forthcoming works it mentioned eastbound queue warning signs on approach to Hopgrove about time 2 people have died in accidents over the last few years as cars have hit the stationary traffic, both have happened pretty much under Grimston Bar roundabout as it’s on a slight bend and travelling at 70 and suddenly seeing a queue isn’t great, so these signs will hopefully help.

Hopgrove to Barton seems to just crawl most days, the Junctions are terrible to get out of, a few weeks ago I had to turn right out of Flaxton with 2 cars in front this took 23 minutes due to constant traffic moving a bit to fast for us to just nudge out, Stockton on the forest crossroads are horrible and the only real improvement is a D2 with a GSJ, traffic lights or a roundabout at here would simply cause the constant traffic to back up.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Rillington »

NICK 647063 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 22:52 Well although we were told the route options would be announced this year the scheme is now moved into Roads period 3, the scheme is now GSJ and dualling east of Hopgrove, the latest news was the dualling was going to cost over £250 million as all the side roads needed GSJ’s or bridges as when the traffic assessments were done and traffic modelling they realised that many motorists actually avoided the A64 and it would attract these back meaning the design had to be able to cope with the A64 real traffic levels including all those who currently avoid it, the current scheme leaves 3 miles of S2 between Welburn and Malton which will be a huge bottleneck.
Thank you for the update Nick.

Therefore are the current proposals to dual only the bit between Hop Grove and the start of the dual carriageway at Barton?
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by NICK 647063 »

Thank you for the update Nick.

Therefore are the current proposals to dual only the bit between Hop Grove and the start of the dual carriageway at Barton?
The ambition is to dual both sections between York and Malton, then east of Malton bypasses of Rillington and Sherburn with over taking lanes....

But the only scheme on the actual list for Highways England is The Hopgrove and dualling to Barton, this will leave a 3 mile S2 section Welburn to Malton, this section has just had widening for larger right turn lanes and speed limit reduced to 50 so can’t see that getting dug up soon!

Rillington is the worst village on the A64, evening queues these days at the traffic lights can cause regular eastbound queues back to the A169 at Old Malton, Rillington has had more housing added so the traffic lights are dealing with more cars coming and going from the side roads meaning at rush hour these lights are changing more and cause the higher eastbound flows to the coast especially on a Friday evening back up, the only real solution here is a bypass but Highways England have just tried to get locals on side by extending the 30 limit, adding buffer 40 and 50 limits......

The trouble is when a York to Malton is dualled the first major bottleneck is Rillington, you do loose a good few onto the A169 at Malton but if the dualling is completed York to Malton higher flows will hit Rillington as it’s already stated a dualled A64 east of Hopgrove will pull all the traffic off the back roads, the only thing to do is start as planned at Hopgrove and keep improving eastwards.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

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NICK 647063 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:37 the only thing to do is start as planned at Hopgrove and keep improving eastwards.
Doesn't that just move the bottleneck to the edge of Scarborough though where you pretty much can't do anything with it? From experience once you get past Rillington traffic is more bearable, but I'm not convinced slamming an expressway quality road into the Seamer bypass without some kind of capture (more P&R etc) is going to alleviate traffic problems for holidaymakers, let alone day to day users.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 16:33
NICK 647063 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:37 the only thing to do is start as planned at Hopgrove and keep improving eastwards.
Doesn't that just move the bottleneck to the edge of Scarborough though where you pretty much can't do anything with it? From experience once you get past Rillington traffic is more bearable, but I'm not convinced slamming an expressway quality road into the Seamer bypass without some kind of capture (more P&R etc) is going to alleviate traffic problems for holidaymakers, let alone day to day users.
If the expressway went all the way to Staxton you'd need some way to distribute the traffic, I think. The problem wouldn't just be the A64 getting into Scarborough, though; the new road would also inevitably attract lots of journeys that presently take other routes to reach Bridlington. The A1079 through Flixton and Muston would need substantial improvements because it would end up taking a fair slice of the traffic.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Rillington »

Thank you for the further update.

Building a new expressway road running parallel to the south of the railway all the way to the start of the Seamer bypass, with a spur for Filey traffic, was what was proposed in the early 1990s. However, I seem to recall that when the plans were shelved the one improvement that was not shelved was a Rillington bypass although that proposal seemingly got shelved at a later date.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

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Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 17:23
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 16:33
NICK 647063 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:37 the only thing to do is start as planned at Hopgrove and keep improving eastwards.
Doesn't that just move the bottleneck to the edge of Scarborough though where you pretty much can't do anything with it? From experience once you get past Rillington traffic is more bearable, but I'm not convinced slamming an expressway quality road into the Seamer bypass without some kind of capture (more P&R etc) is going to alleviate traffic problems for holidaymakers, let alone day to day users.
If the expressway went all the way to Staxton you'd need some way to distribute the traffic, I think. The problem wouldn't just be the A64 getting into Scarborough, though; the new road would also inevitably attract lots of journeys that presently take other routes to reach Bridlington. The A1039 through Flixton and Muston would need substantial improvements because it would end up taking a fair slice of the traffic.
FTFY :)
Yes, so in reality you're looking at a new D2 that splits into two S2s - the A64 is already sort of there at Seamer, but the A1039 is definitely not. But then you have the same question - where do you park all these cars?

Blackpool having the M55 is mitigated by the fact its got the giant car parks where Central Station used to be. You can't do that to Scarborough, and if you did, there'd be no point going there as its charm would have been lost.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 15:51
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 17:23
Bryn666 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 16:33 Doesn't that just move the bottleneck to the edge of Scarborough though where you pretty much can't do anything with it? From experience once you get past Rillington traffic is more bearable, but I'm not convinced slamming an expressway quality road into the Seamer bypass without some kind of capture (more P&R etc) is going to alleviate traffic problems for holidaymakers, let alone day to day users.
If the expressway went all the way to Staxton you'd need some way to distribute the traffic, I think. The problem wouldn't just be the A64 getting into Scarborough, though; the new road would also inevitably attract lots of journeys that presently take other routes to reach Bridlington. The A1039 through Flixton and Muston would need substantial improvements because it would end up taking a fair slice of the traffic.
FTFY :)
Yes, so in reality you're looking at a new D2 that splits into two S2s - the A64 is already sort of there at Seamer, but the A1039 is definitely not. But then you have the same question - where do you park all these cars?

Blackpool having the M55 is mitigated by the fact its got the giant car parks where Central Station used to be. You can't do that to Scarborough, and if you did, there'd be no point going there as its charm would have been lost.
Well, where do they park now? There's no shortage of cars heading for Scarbados already despite the substandard nature of A64. I'm not sure that an increase in accommodation availability is being proposed, just that the people heading there can get there more quickly and safely, and trouble the intervening villages rather less (I did this trip a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and was not impressed, especially past Malton). Mind you, an improved rail service might take some cars off the road. An hourly service each way doesn't really hack it - but signalling improvements would be required, and possibly reinstating a second platform at Malton. But that would be in addition to dualling the road - not everyone can use the train.
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 16:44
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 15:51
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 17:23
If the expressway went all the way to Staxton you'd need some way to distribute the traffic, I think. The problem wouldn't just be the A64 getting into Scarborough, though; the new road would also inevitably attract lots of journeys that presently take other routes to reach Bridlington. The A1039 through Flixton and Muston would need substantial improvements because it would end up taking a fair slice of the traffic.
FTFY :)
Yes, so in reality you're looking at a new D2 that splits into two S2s - the A64 is already sort of there at Seamer, but the A1039 is definitely not. But then you have the same question - where do you park all these cars?

Blackpool having the M55 is mitigated by the fact its got the giant car parks where Central Station used to be. You can't do that to Scarborough, and if you did, there'd be no point going there as its charm would have been lost.
Well, where do they park now? There's no shortage of cars heading for Scarbados already despite the substandard nature of A64. I'm not sure that an increase in accommodation availability is being proposed, just that the people heading there can get there more quickly and safely, and trouble the intervening villages rather less (I did this trip a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and was not impressed, especially past Malton). Mind you, an improved rail service might take some cars off the road. An hourly service each way doesn't really hack it - but signalling improvements would be required, and possibly reinstating a second platform at Malton. But that would be in addition to dualling the road - not everyone can use the train.
The big trade off is day trips, that's what causes most of Blackpool's congestion. The second Scarborough becomes very easy to drive to, everyone will drive to it. That is Braess' Paradox - the more you improve a road, the more people will use it and thus it will be more congested than before. People don't need to be told to go on the train, although rail improvements should be done regardless, the proponents of the road scheme just need to come up with a plan to manage visitors to the place, dumping them all in the fringes of town on congested urban roads having come off a brand new expressway is pointless - it's a scaled down M23 situation.

How about doing something with the existing park and ride - make it better, more bus priority. Get those daytrippers to leave their car safely in a secure car park and take a free high quality bus into town. Or improve cycling options by having cycle hire from Scarborough Station so those railtrippers can explore the town as well.

Just don't, for the love of Christ, end a dual carriageway at the edge of a town and go "eh, what do we do now?"
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Re: A64 YORK HOPGROVE ROUNDABOUT IMPROVEMENT

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 17:03
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 16:44
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 15:51 FTFY :)
Yes, so in reality you're looking at a new D2 that splits into two S2s - the A64 is already sort of there at Seamer, but the A1039 is definitely not. But then you have the same question - where do you park all these cars?

Blackpool having the M55 is mitigated by the fact its got the giant car parks where Central Station used to be. You can't do that to Scarborough, and if you did, there'd be no point going there as its charm would have been lost.
Well, where do they park now? There's no shortage of cars heading for Scarbados already despite the substandard nature of A64. I'm not sure that an increase in accommodation availability is being proposed, just that the people heading there can get there more quickly and safely, and trouble the intervening villages rather less (I did this trip a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and was not impressed, especially past Malton). Mind you, an improved rail service might take some cars off the road. An hourly service each way doesn't really hack it - but signalling improvements would be required, and possibly reinstating a second platform at Malton. But that would be in addition to dualling the road - not everyone can use the train.
The big trade off is day trips, that's what causes most of Blackpool's congestion. The second Scarborough becomes very easy to drive to, everyone will drive to it. That is Braess' Paradox - the more you improve a road, the more people will use it and thus it will be more congested than before. People don't need to be told to go on the train, although rail improvements should be done regardless, the proponents of the road scheme just need to come up with a plan to manage visitors to the place, dumping them all in the fringes of town on congested urban roads having come off a brand new expressway is pointless - it's a scaled down M23 situation.

How about doing something with the existing park and ride - make it better, more bus priority. Get those daytrippers to leave their car safely in a secure car park and take a free high quality bus into town. Or improve cycling options by having cycle hire from Scarborough Station so those railtrippers can explore the town as well.

Just don't, for the love of Christ, end a dual carriageway at the edge of a town and go "eh, what do we do now?"
Hmm, the P&R seemed to be shut when we drove past (this was on a Thursday lunchtime), but we weren't stopping in Scarborough anyway, we were heading for Ravenscar en route to Seaham (yes, I know it's the long way round). There was a long queue into town, but we concluded that this was being made much worse by electricity board roadworks involving TTLs, once we passed those things moved ok.
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