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Shows how closely linked the freeze on all other projects has been to the big 3 of Forth Replacement Crossing, M8 completion and Aberdeen Bypass using the entire capital programme budget the last few years.
Hopefully a few of these smaller schemes can sneak through now before the whole budget is equally devoted to A9 / A96 in future.
As far as the A77 is concerned I'd like to see a WS2+1 Minishant bypass next and then a D2 improvement for Ayr Bypass.
Altnabreac wrote:Shows how closely linked the freeze on all other projects has been to the big 3 of Forth Replacement Crossing, M8 completion and Aberdeen Bypass using the entire capital programme budget the last few years.
Hopefully a few of these smaller schemes can sneak through now before the whole budget is equally devoted to A9 / A96 in future.
That's still a very generous programme.
East Anglia has a similar population to Scotland and the only project it has that is remotely comparable to the "big 3" and A9 upgrade etc. is a twenty to thirty year overdue effort to fix A14 Cambridge/Huntingdon.
Altnabreac wrote:Shows how closely linked the freeze on all other projects has been to the big 3 of Forth Replacement Crossing, M8 completion and Aberdeen Bypass using the entire capital programme budget the last few years.
Hopefully a few of these smaller schemes can sneak through now before the whole budget is equally devoted to A9 / A96 in future.
That's still a very generous programme.
East Anglia has a similar population to Scotland and the only project it has that is remotely comparable to the "big 3" and A9 upgrade etc. is a twenty to thirty year overdue effort to fix A14 Cambridge/Huntingdon.
Completely agree. For me it shows the value of devolution and the political pressure that Ministers come under when they are closer to constituents who can actually lobby effectively for schemes compared to the Westminster system.
These sort of schemes are happening in Scotland because the Scottish Government can see a much more direct political return in it's investment. In general I think both John Swinney and Derek Mackay in recent years have seen the value in capital investment driving the economic recovery in a way that the UK Treasury has never quite bought into fully.
Altnabreac wrote:Shows how closely linked the freeze on all other projects has been to the big 3 of Forth Replacement Crossing, M8 completion and Aberdeen Bypass using the entire capital programme budget the last few years.
Hopefully a few of these smaller schemes can sneak through now before the whole budget is equally devoted to A9 / A96 in future.
That's still a very generous programme.
East Anglia has a similar population to Scotland and the only project it has that is remotely comparable to the "big 3" and A9 upgrade etc. is a twenty to thirty year overdue effort to fix A14 Cambridge/Huntingdon.
Completely agree. For me it shows the value of devolution and the political pressure that Ministers come under when they are closer to constituents who can actually lobby effectively for schemes compared to the Westminster system.
These sort of schemes are happening in Scotland because the Scottish Government can see a much more direct political return in it's investment. In general I think both John Swinney and Derek Mackay in recent years have seen the value in capital investment driving the economic recovery in a way that the UK Treasury has never quite bought into fully.
Yes, I don't particularly object to the extent of investment in Scotland - quite the reverse, in fact. But it does show quite an interesting contrast, and as you say, the importance of a political voice for a region.
Owain wrote:Motorway, or at least dual carriageway. Ditto for the A75.
I am not sure motorway could be justified for the A77 south of Ayr. Though I think that all improvements from Ayr to just south of Girvan should be D2 and designed in such a way that they will eventually join up to form an expressway. Additional 2+1 would probably suffice between Girvan and Cairnryan, with the exception of the hill section south of Ballantrae which should also be D2. South of Stena's Loch Ryan Port to the A75 should be D2 with a bypass of Cairnryan.
I mostly use the A77 when going to or from the ferries for Northern Ireland. The the nature of the ferry traffic results in significant platooning of HGVs; particularly northbound after a boat has docked. My experience is that the short sections of 2+1 often allow just one very slow lorry to pass an even slower lorry. This really adds to driver frustration.
My wishlist for the future in priority order is: -
Maybole bypass (5.3km / 3.3 miles, offline S2+1) - probably too late to wish for a D2 at this stage
Park End to Auchencrosh Wood inc. Ballantrae bypass (6.1km / 3.8 miles, offline D2)
Girvan bypass (3.1km / 1.9 miles, offline D2)
Glenluie to Dalquat inc. Kirkoswald Bypass (4.7km / 2.9 miles, offline D2)
Doonholm to Smithston inc. Minishant bypass (5.6km / 3.5 miles, offline D2)
Cairnryan to A75 (5.5km / 3.4 miles, online D2)
Whitletts to Doonholm (3.7km / 2.3 miles, online D2)
Cairnryan bypass (4.0km / 2.5 miles, offline D2)
Dalquat to Girvan (9.2km / 5.7 miles, offline D2)
Smithston to Glenluie inc. Maybole bypass widening (8.7km / 5.4 miles, offline D2)
Distances are approximate based on the length of road to be improved or bypassed, therefore the resulting scheme length may differ slightly.
In an ideal world, the M77 would be extended from Kilmarnock down to Stranraer. The A77 would run alongside (non-primary).
More realistically, I'd extend the M77 down as far as Ayr. From there, I'd have a GSD2 A77 take traffic down to Stranraer.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
Owain wrote:Motorway, or at least dual carriageway. Ditto for the A75.
I am not sure motorway could be justified for the A77 south of Ayr. Though I think that all improvements from Ayr to just south of Girvan should be D2 and designed in such a way that they will eventually join up to form an expressway. Additional 2+1 would probably suffice between Girvan and Cairnryan, with the exception of the hill section south of Ballantrae which should also be D2. South of Stena's Loch Ryan Port to the A75 should be D2 with a bypass of Cairnryan.
I mostly use the A77 when going to or from the ferries for Northern Ireland. The the nature of the ferry traffic results in significant platooning of HGVs; particularly northbound after a boat has docked. My experience is that the short sections of 2+1 often allow just one very slow lorry to pass an even slower lorry. This really adds to driver frustration.
My wishlist for the future in priority order is: -
Maybole bypass (5.3km / 3.3 miles, offline S2+1) - probably too late to wish for a D2 at this stage
Park End to Auchencrosh Wood inc. Ballantrae bypass (6.1km / 3.8 miles, offline D2)
Girvan bypass (3.1km / 1.9 miles, offline D2)
Glenluie to Dalquat inc. Kirkoswald Bypass (4.7km / 2.9 miles, offline D2)
Doonholm to Smithston inc. Minishant bypass (5.6km / 3.5 miles, offline D2)
Cairnryan to A75 (5.5km / 3.4 miles, online D2)
Whitletts to Doonholm (3.7km / 2.3 miles, online D2)
Cairnryan bypass (4.0km / 2.5 miles, offline D2)
Dalquat to Girvan (9.2km / 5.7 miles, offline D2)
Smithston to Glenluie inc. Maybole bypass widening (8.7km / 5.4 miles, offline D2)
Distances are approximate based on the length of road to be improved or bypassed, therefore the resulting scheme length may differ slightly.
Thoughts and views are welcome.
Is all that dualling really justified? Dualling and grade separation around Ayr is certainly needed but south of Ayr I would have thought more WS2+1s would be adequate for the volume of traffic using the road.
clangy wrote:
I mostly use the A77 when going to or from the ferries for Northern Ireland. The the nature of the ferry traffic results in significant platooning of HGVs; particularly northbound after a boat has docked. My experience is that the short sections of 2+1 often allow just one very slow lorry to pass an even slower lorry. This really adds to driver frustration.
I related my last drive along the A75 on Numpty Overload. I've never seen anything like it! Whole platoons of HGVs using the A75's many long straights to overtake whole platoons of HGVs that were slightly slower. Some of these were pulling out early in the hope of getting the jump on the vehicle in front, even if it was a car or, in my case, a van. Some had to abort their manouevres when a vehicle came the other way; others when they ran out of road; a few even carried on, around blind bends, on the wrong side of the road. All this on a road where the speed limit for HGVs is supposed to be 40mph.
I'm sure that a programme of improvements like those you've proposed for the A77 would improve things considerably; to be honest, my experience of both roads suggests that anything that can be done should be done. These are the main roads to Northern Ireland; Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily are all much better connected to their respective mainlands than NI is to the rest of the UK.
The DUP were bunged a wodge of cash to keep them happy, but maybe also a few quid towards an A75 upgrade might have helped NI feel more connected with the UK. All Westminster has to do is persuade Holyrood that it's a good idea!
If NI-bound traffic is the main issue on the A77 from Ayr, then adopting some kind of public-private sector financial incentive to make a ferry from Larne to Troon as cheap/quick for HGVs and cars as a ferry to Cairnryan would probably negate the need to do any further major upgrades to the A77, allowing any efforts to focus on the A75. I wonder could a creative financial case along those lines be made?
Halmyre wrote:The DUP were bunged a wodge of cash to keep them happy, but maybe also a few quid towards an A75 upgrade might have helped NI feel more connected with the UK. All Westminster has to do is persuade Holyrood that it's a good idea!
The irony is that the A75 does appear to have had a significant amount of money spent on it! I've only been a regular driver on the road during the past four years, but there are some long climbing lanes which appear to be new improvements... although they are still inadequate in the grand scheme of things.
The A77 is much the poor relation, being generally tighter, twistier, and passing through more settlements.
On the other hand, leaving Dumfries at 10am and driving west with stops in Kirkcudbright, Wigtown and Dunragit gives you a most pleasant run to Loch Ryan port, only hitting the platoons for the 3.30pm ferry (which you need to join anyway) between Dunragit and the A751!
clc wrote:Is all that dualling really justified? Dualling and grade separation around Ayr is certainly needed but south of Ayr I would have thought more WS2+1s would be adequate for the volume of traffic using the road.
Owain wrote:I related my last drive along the A75 on Numpty Overload. I've never seen anything like it! Whole platoons of HGVs using the A75's many long straights to overtake whole platoons of HGVs that were slightly slower. Some of these were pulling out early in the hope of getting the jump on the vehicle in front, even if it was a car or, in my case, a van. Some had to abort their manouevres when a vehicle came the other way; others when they ran out of road; a few even carried on, around blind bends, on the wrong side of the road. All this on a road where the speed limit for HGVs is supposed to be 40mph.
I have left the Stena terminal heading for A75/England and the overtaking lanes on the Dunragit bypass, Dunluce bypass and Barlae have all been used by one or two lorries; the same occurs at Glen App and Bennane on the A77. This prevents any cars from overtaking. The next safe overtaking opportunity on the A75 is east of Newton Stewart and that is often impossible due to oncoming vehicles and HGVs continuing to make mad manoeuvres. Because of this, the first safe overtaking opportunity on the A77 and A75 is sometimes more than an hour after leaving the port. On one journey earlier this year I came through Cairnryan at the speed limit and was ready to accelerate away from the village when a lorry hammered past me on the wrong side of the traffic calming island.
I agree that the volume of traffic south of Ayr does not appear to justify D2; but it's the nature of the traffic that's the problem. The D2 I have suggested is on safety grounds and would also improve socio-economic prospects for Girvan and Stranraer. I wouldn't expect the suggested schemes to be done in one go. If one scheme was completed every 2 or 3 years the upgrade would have a completion date in 2030 or 2035.
For reference other nations have built dual carriageways for daily flows of less than 6,000.
Daily flow alone is a poor indicator of whether or not a scheme is needed; time savings and safety are as equally if not more important but seem to often be overlooked.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
clc wrote:Is all that dualling really justified? Dualling and grade separation around Ayr is certainly needed but south of Ayr I would have thought more WS2+1s would be adequate for the volume of traffic using the road.
Owain wrote:I related my last drive along the A75 on Numpty Overload. I've never seen anything like it! Whole platoons of HGVs using the A75's many long straights to overtake whole platoons of HGVs that were slightly slower. Some of these were pulling out early in the hope of getting the jump on the vehicle in front, even if it was a car or, in my case, a van. Some had to abort their manouevres when a vehicle came the other way; others when they ran out of road; a few even carried on, around blind bends, on the wrong side of the road. All this on a road where the speed limit for HGVs is supposed to be 40mph.
I have left the Stena terminal heading for A75/England and the overtaking lanes on the Dunragit bypass, Dunluce bypass and Barlae have all been used by one or two lorries; the same occurs at Glen App and Bennane on the A77. This prevents any cars from overtaking. The next safe overtaking opportunity on the A75 is east of Newton Stewart and that is often impossible due to oncoming vehicles and HGVs continuing to make mad manoeuvres. Because of this, the first safe overtaking opportunity on the A77 and A75 is sometimes more than an hour after leaving the port. On one journey earlier this year I came through Cairnryan at the speed limit and was ready to accelerate away from the village when a lorry hammered past me on the wrong side of the traffic calming island.
I agree that the volume of traffic south of Ayr does not appear to justify D2; but it's the nature of the traffic that's the problem. The D2 I have suggested is on safety grounds and would also improve socio-economic prospects for Girvan and Stranraer. I wouldn't expect the suggested schemes to be done in one go. If one scheme was completed every 2 or 3 years the upgrade would have a completion date in 2030 or 2035.
I'd agree that daily flow is not a great indicator of adequacy of a road. need to look at peak flows, summer and winter and specific issues like ferry terminals.
I can definitely see the need on both A75 and A77 for regular, frequent overtaking opportunities whether D2 or WS2+1. For me it's like the difference between the A1 from Dunbar to Berwick and the A1 in Northumberland.
Dunbar - Berwick is really quite adequate (though I'd love to see it all D2 eventually) because although you might get stuck behind a lorry occasionally you know there are frequent D2 and S3 sections coming up that will allow overtaking within the next 5 miles or so.
Whereas if you get stuck behind a slow lorry at Scremerston you've got 10 miles to Belford bypass where you might get past or 20 miles to Brownieside for a definite D2 overtake.
It's not so much Dunragit bypass that is inadequate as that there is no other overtaking opportunity for so long. If the next WS2+1 section were only 5-10 miles away that would be much more useful.
Bryn666 wrote:For reference other nations have built dual carriageways for daily flows of less than 6,000.
Daily flow alone is a poor indicator of whether or not a scheme is needed; time savings and safety are as equally if not more important but seem to often be overlooked.
These other countries don't build dual carriageways for 6,000 AADT roads instead of dual carriageways for 20,000 AADT roads, they build both. So it's hardly a good argument for upgrading lightly used roads instead of heavily congested ones.
By all means, use time savings and safety comparisons where they're available. In the meantime AADT is a decent proxy for them because there will generally be much bigger time savings and safety benefits where a 20,000 AADT single carriageway is improved than where a 6,000 AADT of the same standard is improved.
jackal wrote:]
These other countries don't build dual carriageways for 6,000 AADT roads instead of dual carriageways for 20,000 AADT roads, they build both. So it's hardly a good argument for upgrading lightly used roads instead of heavily congested ones.
By all means, use time savings and safety comparisons where they're available. In the meantime AADT is a decent proxy for them because there will generally be much bigger time savings and safety benefits where a 20,000 AADT single carriageway is improved than where a 6,000 AADT of the same standard is improved.
The A77 is a road of many parts which is made obvious when you look at how the AADT varies along it.
From Stranraer to Girvan its just over 3000. Dualling seems impossible to justify but I would really like to see the section from Auchencrosh to Ballantrae straightened, ideally with a bypass for Ballantrae on safety grounds, its a horrible piece of road to meet an HGV on one of the sharp bends especially when half metre of its trailer is on you side of the white line. WS2 would seem the best option.
Girvan to Turnberry has an AADT of around 6,000 and is generally a decent road but I would like to see a bypass for Girvan to get the through traffic, especially HGV's out of the town centre and it narrow streets.
Turnberry to Maybole is not that bad however with the tourist developments happening between Turnberry and Ayr I suspect AADT wll keep rising beyond its current 8000 level. We know Maybole is getting a bypass.
From Maybole to Ayr traffic levels climb rapidly and by the time you hit the southern edge of Ayr its around 15000 which can make getting on to the A77 from Alloway or Dalrymple downright scary and with an AADT of over 20,000 the S2 section of the Ayr bypass really needs to be dualled and the at grade junctions looked at very carefully. Whitletts Roundabout can be a real bottleneck. There is only so much that traffic light control can achieve.
Indeed, as I've said before the Ayr bypass is possibly the number 1 priority in Scotland if you go on AADTs - 30,000+ on a single carriageway. But for precisely the same reason that that is such a high priority for dualling and grade separation, much of the A77 isn't.
