A77: Ayr to Stranraer

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What should become of the A77 between Ayr & Stranraer?

Motorway
21
14%
Grade-Seperated D2
47
32%
At-Grade D2
23
16%
WS2/S3/S4/S2+1 etc.
24
16%
Keep it as it is (ie. S2)
10
7%
Mixture of the above
20
14%
Other (please state)
1
1%
 
Total votes: 146

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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by AndyB »

All I can say is there is all the difference in the world between 6am in February and 2pm at the end of August. Apart from the latter being in the good old days of the HSS and therefore from Stranraer, the sheer volume of lorries overtaking you in the dark is something to behold.

Oh, and the M77 isn't awful at 4pm. Unlike 8am.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by c2R »

nirs wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:12 The A77 is a terrible drive. However if the Scottish government's aim is to improve strategic flows, which presumably means traffic going to and from Ireland, I would suggest that subsidising the recently-axed ferry service from Troon would be a better use of money since the A77 is already dual-carriageway from there to Glasgow. The Troon ferry bypasses the whole S2 section, but has never attracted the traffic to make it sustainable. I wonder how that could change if the ferry was cheaper?
Surely it's time is the problem? Cairnryan to Larne is really quick; while Cairnryan to Belfast has better access to the south and nicer ferries. With a conventional ferry, Troon to Larne or Troon to Belfast is too slow to compete with the road journey, but not slow enough to get a night's sleep on the boat. High speed ferries which could compete time-wise are more expensive to operate, and less stable in bad weather so tend to run Summer Only. They also don't carry a large amount of freight, which realistically subsidises car travel, at least through the winter.

I believe that Westminster should put some funding towards the A75 for further improvements, as it is essentially a road in Scotland that benefits England and the north of Ireland predominantly. While I'm back and forward on the ferries all the time, it's really rare that a sailing to Troon would be a useful route for me.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by bothar »

nirs wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:12 The A77 is a terrible drive. However if the Scottish government's aim is to improve strategic flows, which presumably means traffic going to and from Ireland, I would suggest that subsidising the recently-axed ferry service from Troon would be a better use of money since the A77 is already dual-carriageway from there to Glasgow. The Troon ferry bypasses the whole S2 section, but has never attracted the traffic to make it sustainable. I wonder how that could change if the ferry was cheaper?
It might be interesting to compare the cost of subsidising ferries to Troon and somewhere like Heysham as against improving all the roads.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by KeithW »

bothar wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 17:40 It might be interesting to compare the cost of subsidising ferries to Troon and somewhere like Heysham as against improving all the roads.
I doubt it would be worth it at any price. Both Heysham and Troon would be much longer crossings and the chances of the Scottish government subsidising a ferry between England and NI is nil. Subsidising ferries is an open check book with nothing to show at the end, improving roads gives you a tangible asset.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by Frostyj »

Is there scope for reducing the ferry time down to 90 minutes?

2 hours is an awful long journey just for a 20 odd mile crossing.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by Euan »

Frostyj wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 06:47 Is there scope for reducing the ferry time down to 90 minutes?

2 hours is an awful long journey just for a 20 odd mile crossing.
Not without a faster vessel such as a catamaran like what used to operate at Troon. Alternatively either of the operators at Cairnryan could look into reducing turnaround times at each dock to allow for more frequent sailings, although loading and unloading does take quite a while for vessels that size.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by AndyB »

The HSS used to run Belfast-Stranraer in about 100 minutes, partly because of the crawl along Belfast lough, but it was slowed to 120 minutes to save fuel.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by Frostyj »

So conceivably Larne to Cairnryan could’ve been done in 1 hour 20?
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by AndyB »

Potentially, yes, because Loch Ryan is quite short, but it looks as though both Stena and P&O are sticking to conventional ferries, which are slower and more profitable - especially with the very tight margins on English Channel routes.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by Euan »

nirs wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:12 The A77 is a terrible drive. However if the Scottish government's aim is to improve strategic flows, which presumably means traffic going to and from Ireland, I would suggest that subsidising the recently-axed ferry service from Troon would be a better use of money since the A77 is already dual-carriageway from there to Glasgow. The Troon ferry bypasses the whole S2 section, but has never attracted the traffic to make it sustainable. I wonder how that could change if the ferry was cheaper?
The ferry service from Troon was more of a tourist service which I think only operated during the summer and was costing more money than it was making with not enough passengers using it. The lightly used Campbeltown - Ballycastle vehicle service in the late 1990s did not last long before being axed.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by KeithW »

Frostyj wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 06:47 Is there scope for reducing the ferry time down to 90 minutes?

2 hours is an awful long journey just for a 20 odd mile crossing.
Not really, you don't want to be doing high speed manoeuvring in Belfast Lough or Loch Ryan and I will wager the Pilotage requirements for Belfast Lough will put a speed restriction on anyway. At best you have 10-15 miles at which you could do 30 knots and I doubt that would shave more than 15 minutes off the crossing. The cost of that in fuel and new ships is going to be high. Given the hull length I suspect you would use more than double the power and hence fuel to reach 30 knots compared with 17-18 knots. At high speeds most of the resistance to motion is provided by the bow wave which is why you will not be permitted to do those speeds in confined waters where large bow waves are not appreciated. You can reduce the effect by using hydrofoils or catamarans but those would not be a viable solution in the Irish Sea in winter.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by c2R »

P&O and Stena operate their conventional ferries between 16 and 18 knots meaning that it takes around 2h to do the 60km between Cairnryan and Larne, and 2h15 to do the 77km between Cairnryan and Belfast. The latest Incat designs can do about 35 knots max, which would mean you could cross between Cairnryan and Larne in an hour. However, as Andy says, there are speed limits in the loughs, and in the harbour and area around the harbour. The vessel also need to dock (which takes time) and not accelerate so quickly as to make an uncomfortable journey.

The other problem is that when it is rough, the fast ferries don't run - which is why even further south at Holyhead Irish Ferries have opted to not run the Dublin Swift over winter. Fast ferries also do not carry a large amount of freight, which is the bread and butter of these routes.

Stena and P&O both tried fast crossings to Troon, and services did operate from both Larne and Belfast at different times. I can't really see these coming back any time soon; I think all involved would prefer to concentrate on the existing ports and routes for the foreseeable.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by AndyB »

The speed restriction on Belfast Lough was imposed because of the wash created by the HSS.

Stena's Superfast ferries operate at up to 20 knots, but they were designed to operate at up to 30 knots. By comparison, the HSS could theoretically run at up to 50 knots unladen, and it was particularly noticeable when operating Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead as it was full ahead all engines as soon as the craft cleared either harbour. It was also less susceptible to bad weather than smaller catamarans such as the Stena Lynx, HSC Express and the SeaCats.

I miss the HSS quite badly, to be honest. I rather liked it.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by KeithW »

AndyB wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 13:15 The speed restriction on Belfast Lough was imposed because of the wash created by the HSS.

Stena's Superfast ferries operate at up to 20 knots, but they were designed to operate at up to 30 knots. By comparison, the HSS could theoretically run at up to 50 knots unladen, and it was particularly noticeable when operating Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead as it was full ahead all engines as soon as the craft cleared either harbour. It was also less susceptible to bad weather than smaller catamarans such as the Stena Lynx, HSC Express and the SeaCats.

I miss the HSS quite badly, to be honest. I rather liked it.
The Superfast ferries were built for the Helsinki to Rostock route but the running costs at 30 knots were unsupportably high and the Superfast operation was discontinued. Their next usage was on the Rosyth to Zeebrugge route but again revenues did not cover running costs and the service was withdrawn in 2008.

Stena refitted the Superfast ferries when they took them on to increase passenger and vehicle capacity by removing most of the cabins. They also fitted an extra bowthruster and took the policy decision to run them at 18 knots. That considerably reduced costs. Clearly Stena took the decision that slower running was necessary to make the route viable.

When they entered service in 2002 there was a lot of discussion on shipping and naval bulletin boards and usenet groups and the general opinion was that the running costs would be unsupportable and so it proved. 18 knots is about the standard speed for most large cargo vessels and ferries. Its the sweet spot in the passage time/cost calculation on all but the shortest routes.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by mehere »

c2R wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 15:05
nirs wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:12 The A77 is a terrible drive. However if the Scottish government's aim is to improve strategic flows, which presumably means traffic going to and from Ireland, I would suggest that subsidising the recently-axed ferry service from Troon would be a better use of money since the A77 is already dual-carriageway from there to Glasgow. The Troon ferry bypasses the whole S2 section, but has never attracted the traffic to make it sustainable. I wonder how that could change if the ferry was cheaper?
Surely it's time is the problem? Cairnryan to Larne is really quick; while Cairnryan to Belfast has better access to the south and nicer ferries. With a conventional ferry, Troon to Larne or Troon to Belfast is too slow to compete with the road journey, but not slow enough to get a night's sleep on the boat. High speed ferries which could compete time-wise are more expensive to operate, and less stable in bad weather so tend to run Summer Only. They also don't carry a large amount of freight, which realistically subsidises car travel, at least through the winter.

I believe that Westminster should put some funding towards the A75 for further improvements, as it is essentially a road in Scotland that benefits England and the north of Ireland predominantly. While I'm back and forward on the ferries all the time, it's really rare that a sailing to Troon would be a useful route for me.

I cannot agree more , having lived in Eireann County Mayo, I always said ( and it may yet happen/ - off topic but heading back to it ( bear with my post ).
To travel from a place only 35 odd km from Galway , by the shores of Loch Corib and Cong, to North lincs , involved the dreadful N17 ( now it's been extended to Tuam , and I read and are afoot with an aim to reach the border). But that then makes it a bit like the A1 on the English East coast like the roads you mention, one side won't pay up to the border ( Westminster). So to reach the ferry is a tortured 5 hour run to Larne more to Belfast. The A4, Past Enniskillen may well be on the list to upgrade and bypass - traffic is a nightmare ), but then you have km upon km of S2 until you reach the D2, and the wonderful new D2 toward Larne .
Then two hours on the Boat , and your greeted with a road that bar two sections and Dumfries has not seem any investment for decades .
Imho , The A75 , should not only get Westminster cash as so many drivers ( I've done this route a heck of a lot too , you can follow plenty of cars , the majority all head south , or maybe some avoid the A77 as that is just as bad if not worse than the A77, so they go along to the A74(M) to reach Glasgow .
Which is crazy , Both routes are of not only National but European Importance ( especially the A75), but on topic , It's high time that they build am expressway repleat with the blue signs that they are planning to build going forward in various projects.
All the way to the end of the M77, but also continue it until it joins the D2 that passes Ferguson Shipyards on the Clyde .
It's not fantasy but a very much needed long overdue upgrade.
Yes you can go via the A55 , but the ferry to Dublin is too slow , many of them require unsociable hours and a cabin , yes you get all the Motorway options from Dublin.
Galway is approximately two hours drive .
But if you need to get to the North and counties in the republic, Eg Sligo and Donegal ,( and Mayo) it's a nightmare .

I've often. Said there needs to be some kind of nationalised transport infrastructure business , one that covers road, rail , air and sea
Because right now , take HS2 for example , I'd bet half the delays or things that slow down the build are the interactions between network rail and the highways teams , gaining access etc etc .
The only way to deliver imho a proper solution, to two Strategic routes is a fully integrated organisation, Eg the ferry companies ought to have a say in the ultimate design .
And what does one do at Cairnrysn where the two roads meet , they need to be free flow with much better accsess to the port .
As it stands now, a major British port is served by two country lane class roads .
Simply not good enough
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by Frostyj »

Why would you travel to County Antrim to get a ferry to Great Britain from all the way down in Galway. Would you not be better using the Dublin ferries?
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by Euan »

Frostyj wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 03:30 Why would you travel to County Antrim to get a ferry to Great Britain from all the way down in Galway. Would you not be better using the Dublin ferries?
It depends on where you are going in Great Britain. If you are going anywhere in Scotland or the northern half of England then the quickest crossing would be to Cairnryan from either Belfast or Larne. The crossing to Holyhead from Dublin is about an hour longer than the Cairnryan crossings and is really only the preferred crossing if you are heading for Wales or the southern half of England.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by mehere »

The above post covers the answer , and the P&o ferry from Dublin means a sleep in a cabin and a 330am wake up call , 5 breakfast and then into Dublin into the Northwest English motorway Rush hour .
Not what many need after an overnight trip.
Not everyone can afford other operators , and the A55 can be very Congested .
Besides like the OP said you don't drive to Wales if you live up North or In Scotland.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by KeithW »

mehere wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 14:24

I've often. Said there needs to be some kind of nationalised transport infrastructure business , one that covers road, rail , air and sea
Because right now , take HS2 for example , I'd bet half the delays or things that slow down the build are the interactions between network rail and the highways teams , gaining access etc etc .
The only way to deliver imho a proper solution, to two Strategic routes is a fully integrated organisation, Eg the ferry companies ought to have a say in the ultimate design .
And what does one do at Cairnrysn where the two roads meet , they need to be free flow with much better accsess to the port .
As it stands now, a major British port is served by two country lane class roads .
Simply not good enough
A Nationalised Transport Infrastructure was tried in 1948 when the British Transport Commission was formed . It controlled the networks and assets of the Big Four national regional railway companies, 55 other railway undertakings, the canals and all the major road haulage firms, as well as the work of the London Passenger Transport Board along with the fleets of 'private owner wagons', which industrial concerns had used to transport goods on the railway networks. They even nationalised package holiday companies such as Thomas Cook.

The results were far from good as the excessive bureaucracy stifled development rather than allowing it to develop and every decision was highly politicised. The result was that in a decade the system had clearly failed. When the new ICI site at Wilton was being developed there was a prolonged period of interdepartmental wrangling about the mode of transport to be used shipping goods in and out. In the end of course a typical compromise was reached in which both were provided. The railway sidings were only ever used to bring coal into the power station for a few years until it was converted to oil and gas and the road access was inadequate into the 1970's when the Teesside Parkway was built. In 1970 everything coming out of the huge plant ended up on suburban streets in Middlesbrough, Eston or Darlington. It was the 1980's before a good road system was finally put in place with the A66 taking the traffic off the town centre roads.

My experience in the construction game is that the longest delays are caused by bureaucracy especially the prolonged public inquiries that have become the norm. Network Rail and Highways England seem to have worked very well together on the A14 project where crossing of railways such as the ECML has gone very smoothly.

The road system to Cairnryan is of course already controlled by Traffic Scotland who are responsible to the Scottish Government. As I said in another post the S2 A751 road from Cairnryan to the A75 carries less than 2.000 vehicles a day while the A77 takes about 3,000. To put that in perspective the S2 A5 between Dunstable and Milton Keynes caries 15,000 vehicles a day and the A20 out of Dover carries 20,000.

Stena Line don't care what happens once the trucks leave the ship and it is of course a multinational based in Sweden. Actually the road connections to Pembroke Dock and Fishguard are MUCH busier than those in Galloway carrying traffic volumes in the 6,000 to 12,000 movements a day region and in the case of Pembroke Dock the traffic goes right through the urban area.
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Re: A77: Ayr to Stranraer

Post by KeithW »

mehere wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 09:15 The above post covers the answer , and the P&o ferry from Dublin means a sleep in a cabin and a 330am wake up call , 5 breakfast and then into Dublin into the Northwest English motorway Rush hour .
Not what many need after an overnight trip.
Not everyone can afford other operators , and the A55 can be very Congested .
Besides like the OP said you don't drive to Wales if you live up North or In Scotland.
Actually were I to travel from from my home in NE England to Dublin by car my route would in fact take me over the M62 and A55 to Holyhead. The driving time on that road is anything from 4 hours and about 230 miles. Going via Cairnryan the drive is shorter in distance but takes around the same time but then I am left with another 100 miles or 2 hours to Dublin.

P&O from Liverpool to Dublin is just too long a crossing especially at this time of year. I dont find an 8 hour crossing of the Irish Sea in winter an attractive prospect.
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