A361 (was A39) Vergemasters - Update 05-07-07

DavidBrown · Post by **DavidBrown** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 16:03

RichieGraham wrote:
Squirrel (SafeSpeed Forums) wrote:I have friends in Torrington, not far from Barnstaple. Coming back one night along that very section of road I got stuck behind a broken down HGV.

For about 2 hours.

And nothing could move, nothing could overtake it.

Utter utter stupidity.

I then had another 2 hours drive to get home (I live just north of Bristol).

Could vehicles have not reversed back to the end of the bollards and turned around? They did exactly that a couple of Saturdays back when one carriageway of the dual A361 towards Braunton was closed by an accident - I had to reverse back to Pottinton traffic lights and then divert through Pilton.

coasterjunkie · Post by **coasterjunkie** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:28

Surely you could only reverse for such a distance with police permission and guidance? Well, I know you could anyway - but I'm thinking in legal terms!

Andy

Jeni · Post by **Jeni** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 19:34

The posts look far enough apart to slip through and turn around if you cant get anywhere else.

RichieGraham · Post by **RichieGraham** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 20:04

Craggs wrote:The posts look far enough apart to slip through and turn around if you cant get anywhere else.

I think you could just about (judging by the vergemasters at Knowstone), but it would be a definate squeeze. Legal though

Actually, thinking about it (hence the edit!), the posts here are offset, so you wouldn't be able to get from one carraigeway to the other.

RichieGraham · Post by **RichieGraham** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:09

<bump> A few weeks back, I wrote a follow up letter to Simon Hill, the person from the council who sent me and David identical emails. The Letter went like this:

I wrote:This letter is in response to a letter I wrote on the 9th December, regarding the positioning of vergemasters in the centre lane of the A39 between the Portmore and Bishop's Tawton roundabouts (now the A361).

It is with regret that I notice that the road in question still has these vergemasters in place, and that the safety auditor did not see sense. Since positioning, many of these have become damaged, and now litter the road, not only causing a danger to vehicles, particularly motorcycles, but also creating a bad image to visitors to this area, especially as with the opening of the Western Bypass, this is now the main route to most of the North Devon coast.

Going back to the points I made in my original letter, the traffic flow along this stretch has proven to have times of congestion, and this will increase as the summer approaches. While this is not as a result of the vergemasters along this stretch, the point has to be reiterated of emergency vehicles using this stretch and being unable to pass despite the road having the capacity. I also mentioned that should a vehicle break down while passing through this area, it would cause traffic to tail back. While I have heard no stories of any problems caused by emergency vehicles, I have heard a few stories of a LGV breaking down along this stretch, causing traffic to be stationary for a couple of hours until the vehicle could be recovered.

I understand the reasonings behind this work having been done, and that an increased right filter lane at the Bishops Tawton roundabout was a necessity, and while I am unsure of the purpose of removing a legitimate overtaking lane on the northbound carriageway which, as far as I was aware, was not an accident blackspot, there are a number of alternative suggestions which are currently in use elsewhere with no adverse side-effects, both removing the overtaking lane, while continuing to be safe and provide alternative access to emergency vehicles and a 'bypass' for any broken down vehicles:

The A361 at Knowstone: the left hand lane has become a hard shoulder style bit of road, which prevents cars from entering this area. The result is that a formerly three lane portion of road, similar to the one that was in situ between Portmore and Bishops Tawton, is now two lanes. Any emergency vehicles can overtake on this stretch, and should a vehicle break down, any vehicles behind are able to pass. This section has a dashed line in the centre, which means that any vehicle is permitted to overtake; a double line in the centre would prevent overtaking, which is what you have decided to do dangerously with the vergemasters between Portmore and Bishops Tawton.

The A37 just south of Bristol: This road was also a former three lane overtaking road like that at Knowstone and that at Bishops Tawton. In this case, the centre lane has been hashed out, and bordered by solid lines which prevents vehicles from entering this area, except in situations where a vehicle has broken down, or should an emergency vehicle has to pass. In addition, this stretch also has the correct 'No Overtaking' signs erected at points along it, and not just an incorrect text sign (which also looks temporary) which is what has been positioned on the road between Portmore and Bishops Tawton. This would be the most practical course of action given what is already in place in the area in question.

Another suggestion which I do not have a photo of, would be to make this road into a two lane stretch, with wide shoulders (logically half a lane wide) either side. This would have the effect of narrowing the road, and still allow vehicles to pass in legit circumstances (which I will not go into again in fear of being hailed as too repetitive!).

I do feel that the second of the suggestions (the A37 example) would be the best course of action for this area, with the addition of the correct 'No Overtaking' signs on both sides of the carriageway (particularly the northbound side where the overtaking has been removed), and removal of these vergemasters which, when used correctly are perfectly safe, and provide a valid safety feature of the roads, but in this case are not safe, and which, in my opinion, is only a matter of time for them to cause a serious incident along this stretch of road.

(The two pictures were the one of the A37 south of Bristol that I used as a WAI a little while back, the other of the road at Knowstone).

I received a reply today:

Simon Hill (DCC) wrote:The County Council did look at various options for this section of the A39, including your first two suggestions. To remove the left hand lane, similar to the works at Knowstone, would certainly have been our preferred option to combat the accident problem at the top of the hill had it been the only issue. However the County Council was also faced with the congestion issue leading on to the Bishops Tawton roundabout, which required the use of the overtaking lane and therefore ruled this option out.

The option that the County chose is very similar to the A37 at Bristol, but concern was expressed that simply relying on double white lines to stop the overtaking would lead to drivers still using what remained of the central lane. (Simply placing double white lines in the centre of the carraigeway has been proven not to work on sections of this very road and often with fatal consequences). It was therefore felt that such a major alteration to this section of road needed the message reinforced by placing vergemasters and coloured surfacing.

To date this office has not been made aware of any problems associated with emergency vehicles or breakdowns causing the road to be blocked. In fact I have personally had to pass a large articulated lorry broken down in this section and so with reasonable ease. As these vergemasters have now been in place for over 7 months I am sure that we would have received some indication by now that they were causing such dire problems.

I would however add that following the post opening safety audit, the Auditor did comment that once the layout had been in place for some time (at least 12 months) and drivers had become more accepting of the layout, then the placement of the vergemasters could be reviewed again.

Your comments with respect to the vergemasters being damaged are noted and I have raised this matter with the Area Engineer and his Highway Engineers responsible for maintenance.

Yours sincerely, Simon Hill for County Environment Director

What I read as: Para 1: we couldn't be bothered to think about the road layout; Para 2: we have to stop drivers being in accidents caused by their own stupidity (which I suppose is fair enough); Para 3: broken down vehicles is not an issue (not having been caught in any problems myself I cannot really comment); Para 4: Try again in 12 months (if you dare!); Para 5: The broken vergemasters will be replaced (costing the council time and money for something rather pointless...)

I might as well just let this go...

Johnathan404 · Post by **Johnathan404** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:16

RichieGraham wrote:(Simply placing double white lines in the centre of the carraigeway has been proven not to work on sections of this very road and often with fatal consequences)

I can't help but think that anyone who wishes to break a rule like this should face their own problems. If you want to protect innocent road users from getting involved then the answer is simple: more policing! Without a threat of some sort, people will consider to flout the law.

DavidBrown · Post by **DavidBrown** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:44

Regarding the damaged posts, I notice that there are quite large sections now with damaged posts - and the remains are littering the hatched out lane. The result is a complete mess. Many people complain that the Sticklepath Stones look a mess - what about the Portmore Posts?! The reason why he would have had very few problems with the breakdown is because there's very few posts left to block the path.

Also from the sounds of it, it's only because of yur e-mail that they now know about the damaged posts - I presume they would have been left until they were all gone otherwise?

I did once encounter some roadworks on the stretch. Here's some pictures showing how they do things with the bollards:

kieron · Post by **kieron** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 00:10

DavidBrown wrote:The reason why he would have had very few problems with the breakdown is because there's very few posts left to block the path.

A few posts and a mess of broken bits and other detritus in the middle should still discourage people from using the lane to overtake moving vehicles pretty effectively. Why mess with something which works?

highwaymana31 · Post by **highwaymana31** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 06:45

kieron wrote:
DavidBrown wrote:The reason why he would have had very few problems with the breakdown is because there's very few posts left to block the path.
A few posts and a mess of broken bits and other detritus in the middle should still discourage people from using the lane to overtake moving vehicles pretty effectively. Why mess with something which works?

You are joking, right?

haymansafc · Post by **haymansafc** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 13:42

DavidBrown wrote:Regarding the damaged posts, I notice that there are quite large sections now with damaged posts - and the remains are littering the hatched out lane. The result is a complete mess. Many people complain that the Sticklepath Stones look a mess - what about the Portmore Posts?!

I know, all this hatching at Portmore on what’s now the A361 was carried out only about a week or two after my last visit so I haven’t seen them - or what’s left rather, in the flesh as of yet. Just looking from pictures posted of this section, the posts look very unsightly and don’t personally see the need for them.

As for breakdowns, unless the vehicle which has broken down can get to the left of the solid white line and partly on the gravel, I can see previous points about other vehicles struggling to get past, especially large HGV’s.

Considering it’s now the main route to the likes of Braunton, Saunton, Croyde, Woolacobe, Ilfracombe e.t.c, it’s not exactly the nicest sight to see - masses of posts and debris from those which have broken. Also as a lane has been taken away, as I said much earlier regarding this, I suspect this will be a new congestion hotspot over the coming weeks until the end of August with long lines of slow moving traffic.

kieron wrote:A few posts and a mess of broken bits and other detritus in the middle should still discourage people from using the lane to overtake moving vehicles pretty effectively. Why mess with something which works?

I can think of a couple of local roads to the pair of us which has received similar treatment in recent years where people still overtake on the hatched out section and kick up all the debris regardless as they roar past...! The A51 just east of Chester springs to mind immediately! The only real way you will stop overtaking in situations like this on the ex-A39, now A361, is to quite literally turn the whole length of the red hatched out section into a raised pavement area, effectively creating two 'channels' for traffic...

Bryn666 · Post by **Bryn666** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 14:13

Keiron - when one of those bits of debris in the middle of the road flies up after a HGV's passing turbulence disturbs it and it flies through your windscreen, fatally wounding you, I'm of the view you may feel there's a bit of stupidity involved with these posts...

I'm no highways expert but even I know debris is a killer. Deliberately placed debris is tantamount to manslaughter.

jcpren · Post by **jcpren** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 22:23

haymansafc wrote:The only real way you will stop overtaking in situations like this on the ex-A39, now A361, is to quite literally turn the whole length of the red hatched out section into a raised pavement area, effectively creating two 'channels' for traffic...

Sounds good. Drivers love it when roads get dualled!

kieron · Post by **kieron** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 00:42

highwaymana31 wrote:
kieron wrote:Why mess with something which works?
You are joking, right?

Maybe. If it works as well as the man from the council claims, and if it doesn't worry their lawyers, I don't see a reason for changing anything. This includes replacing the damaged/missing posts.

DavidBrown · Post by **DavidBrown** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:35

kieron wrote:I don't see a reason for changing anything. This includes replacing the damaged/missing posts.

Ok then, but you have to pay for all the new posts. How does that sound?

Incidentaly, I noticed passing through a couple of days ago that the debris of broken posts have been cleared from the middle, though the old ones haven't yet been replaced. The lack of broken posts makes it even clearer now just how many are missing.

kieron · Post by **kieron** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 19:39

DavidBrown wrote:
kieron wrote:I don't see a reason for changing anything. This includes replacing the damaged/missing posts.
Ok then, but you have to pay for all the new posts. How does that sound?

If you want someone to install new posts (or fiddle around with the road in any other way), you pay for it!

DavidBrown · Post by **DavidBrown** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 22:24

kieron wrote:If you want someone to install new posts (or fiddle around with the road in any other way), you pay for it!

Eh? I DON'T want new posts installing. The only way I want the road fiddled around with (apart from widening it...) is to have posts removed - which I would happily do for free!

kieron · Post by **kieron** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 23:59

DavidBrown wrote:
kieron wrote:If you want someone to install new posts (or fiddle around with the road in any other way), you pay for it!
Eh? I DON'T want new posts installing. The only way I want the road fiddled around with (apart from widening it...) is to have posts removed - which I would happily do for free!

In that case, we can leave paying for it to whoever it is who does want to fiddle around with it.

Lil · Post by **Lil** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 08:20

Which is namely tax payers.

Given there are a number of questionable schemes like this progressed, it makes you wonder if instead of fiddling and skirting around the edges that the money saved from silly schemes such as this whether there would be a bigger kitty for better and more worthy projects of road improvement.

There again departments always have a case of silly buggers in March when they realise they have to spend their remaining budget before the end of the financial year where offices all over the world seem to amass a stupid quantity of staplers and post-it notes

There are many more much more worthy safety and improvement schemes that could be accomplished if the money wasn't frittered away on pointless schemes such as this one on the A39... or is it A361 now

Vicky