Speed Cameras

[fras]

Abolish the 50mph limit and there will be no need for repeaters

Really, what has the most positive effect? Keeping the NSL and installing Specs or reducing the limit to 50 without any enforcement? If drivers are losing control doing 70+ in a 60 then what is the point in reducing the existing limit?

Its the bread-and-butter of the local Cash Camera Partnership !

[Berk]

Abolish the 50mph limit and there will be no need for repeaters

Really, what has the most positive effect? Keeping the NSL and installing Specs or reducing the limit to 50 without any enforcement? If drivers are losing control doing 70+ in a 60 then what is the point in reducing the existing limit?

Its the bread-and-butter of the local Cash Camera Partnership !

In these times of austerity, it's the partnerships who are bleeding the country dry. With the money saved, we could actually pay for real police officers, who can charge offenders.

[Berk]

Abolish the 50mph limit and there will be no need for repeaters

Really, what has the most positive effect? Keeping the NSL and installing Specs or reducing the limit to 50 without any enforcement? If drivers are losing control doing 70+ in a 60 then what is the point in reducing the existing limit?

That, and having two different limits side-by-side. I'm thinking of Buckden on the A1 here. You don't need to have a 50 limit continuing after the Roundabout, followed by 3 miles of SPECS for the 60 zone.

[CrazyInWeston]

Talking about speed cameras, I apologise if mentioned before in this thread or elsewhere, but 2 months ago I went home on the M6 going through that 13ish mile contraflow where they're building the new smart motorway, I went at speeds where my dashcam said 55-57mph most of the time, (was only following ahead traffic) and I was sure to expect a letter. Do they really enforce these? because I also often see people trundling along at 70mph if theres room to do so. Also on the same matter, those that seem happily to zoom past in the 3rd lane when overhead signs in smart sections say 50mph but they're also zooming past at 70mph?

Having said all that, I always ignore the 50mph limit applied when I join the M5 at J19 southbound, because I know for a fact, the next gantry is NSL, everytime... because its the last gantry!

[Haydn1971]

I went at speeds where my dashcam said 55-57mph most of the time, (was only following ahead traffic) and I was sure to expect a letter. Do they really enforce these? because I also often see people trundling along at 70mph if theres room to do so. Also on the same matter, those that seem happily to zoom past in the 3rd lane when overhead signs in smart sections say 50mph but they're also zooming past at 70mph?

Depends on the threshold being used in the first instance, typically 10% +2mph or higher - some areas use 10% +3 even higher I've heard of 10% +5 in Greater Manchester. Also average speed normally work in pairs, so you never really know which pair are operational - this could be down to tactical deployment or just that power or comms was difficult to provide at a single site along the enforced section.

As for enforced Smart Motorways, not all gantries have cameras, the M1 J28-31 section for example has a few sites in each direction which I often see flashing in the opposite direction when a lower speed is operational - it's unclear which police force enforces the NSL on motorways and by what threshold. Smart motorways are generally using fixed point HADEX units rather than average speed.

[brummie_rob]

I haven't seen a HADECS 2 flash since the rules on making cameras visible came into force last October. Some were replaced by HADECS 3 on the M42 and M6 but there are still plenty of 2 in place but I've seen people whizzing through with no flashes.

[Barkstar]

In these times of austerity, it's the partnerships who are bleeding the country dry. With the money saved, we could actually pay for real police officers, who can charge offenders.

The average speed system installed on the A537 Cat and Fiddle cost at the least a high six figure sum and was designed to tackle a very specific problem that is really only an issue on sunny summer days. It is an excellent example of using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I've often wondered how many people it has actually caught. At the time the camera partnership's spokesman said if this didn't work they would seek to ban motorcycles for the road….. A million quid will buy you a lot of police presence on those dry warm days.

[mikehindsonevans]

In these times of austerity, it's the partnerships who are bleeding the country dry. With the money saved, we could actually pay for real police officers, who can charge offenders.

The average speed system installed on the A537 Cat and Fiddle cost at the least a high six figure sum and was designed to tackle a very specific problem that is really only an issue on sunny summer days. It is an excellent example of using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I've often wondered how many people it has actually caught. At the time the camera partnership's spokesman said if this didn't work they would seek to ban motorcycles for the road….. A million quid will buy you a lot of police presence on those dry warm days.

It was interesting to peruse the Wikipedia entry for this road (which seems to summarise a long bit of history):
++++++++ start Wikipedia quote
As a result of the many injuries and fatalities (33 major crashes from 1999 to 2001)[3] the speed limit on the section between Macclesfield and the Cat and Fiddle Inn has been reduced to 50 mph (80 km/h) from the national 60 mph (97 km/h) limit. The road is regularly patrolled by unmarked police cars and motorcycles, and a mobile speed camera van is used most weekends during the summer. A police aircraft is often used in conjunction with these to enforce the speed limit.

The road was named as the UK's most dangerous in a 2008 survey.[4] The single-carriageway route was the location of 21 fatal and serious crashes, and was rated in the EuroRAP report as Black, the highest risk rating.[5] This was in spite of a number of countermeasures installed by the road authority, including motorcycle-friendly barriers. The Foundation attributed this high number of accidents to road user behaviour; indeed, when motorcycle-related collisions are removed from the results the road became one of the safest in the country.[5]

Cheshire County Council also pointed the finger at motorcyclists' behaviour:

"The fact is that it’s an attractive road to motorcyclists – they see it as a challenge to ride with its hairpin bends, limited views, downhill descent and uphill ascent. The thing that angers us most is not the fact that it’s dangerous, but that there are a group of people on that road who knowingly push the boundaries. We have tried to get the message across, that it is the emergency services that have to pick these people up off the road and have the duty of telling their families that they have killed themselves."[6]
++++++++ end Wikipedia quote
I note at the bottom of the Wikipedia article that there is this link from MCN (with an update in 2011 - which presaged the disbanding of the "Cheshire Safer Roads partnership"):
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... a-cock-up/

In fairness, this particular road has been a meeting point for the donor-cycle brigade for decades. The transplant team is always grateful. But I am still trying to get my head around what is meant by a "motorcycle-friendly barrier". Can any of the roads professionals on this forum help?

Mike

[KeithW]

In fairness, this particular road has been a meeting point for the donor-cycle brigade for decades. The transplant team is always grateful. But I am still trying to get my head around what is meant by a "motorcycle-friendly barrier". Can any of the roads professionals on this forum help?

Mike

Its a plastic barrier that absorbe energy when a biker hits it.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2009 ... h-barrier/

In my local area the B1257 between Chop Gate and Helmsley has a similar deadly reputation for motorcyclists which is in no small measure due to the combination of being a popular bikers road and the presence of dry stone walls which are the antithesis of the motorcycle-friendly barrier.
http://www.darlingtonandstocktontimes.c ... Yorkshire/

[Glen]

But I am still trying to get my head around what is meant by a "motorcycle-friendly barrier". Can any of the roads professionals on this forum help?

Mike

It means there is a lower rail which covers the posts.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/inde ... arrier.jpg

[owen b]

In these times of austerity, it's the partnerships who are bleeding the country dry. With the money saved, we could actually pay for real police officers, who can charge offenders.

The average speed system installed on the A537 Cat and Fiddle cost at the least a high six figure sum and was designed to tackle a very specific problem that is really only an issue on sunny summer days. It is an excellent example of using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I've often wondered how many people it has actually caught. At the time the camera partnership's spokesman said if this didn't work they would seek to ban motorcycles for the road….. A million quid will buy you a lot of police presence on those dry warm days.

I hardly think that the safety issue on this road can be compared to a walnut, cf. the Wikipedia info referred to by mikehindsonevans. And I don't think the main purpose of the average speed cameras is to catch speeders, I think it's to discourage speeding and hence reduce the appalling casualty rate. If they just wanted to catch speeders there would be no high profile warnings. It's a shame the measures are necessary when only a small minority of road users (evidently concentrated amongst the motorcyclists) are driving unsafely, but there you go .

[Barkstar]

In these times of austerity, it's the partnerships who are bleeding the country dry. With the money saved, we could actually pay for real police officers, who can charge offenders.

The average speed system installed on the A537 Cat and Fiddle cost at the least a high six figure sum and was designed to tackle a very specific problem that is really only an issue on sunny summer days. It is an excellent example of using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I've often wondered how many people it has actually caught. At the time the camera partnership's spokesman said if this didn't work they would seek to ban motorcycles for the road….. A million quid will buy you a lot of police presence on those dry warm days.

I hardly think that the safety issue on this road can be compared to a walnut, cf. the Wikipedia info referred to by mikehindsonevans. And I don't think the main purpose of the average speed cameras is to catch speeders, I think it's to discourage speeding and hence reduce the appalling casualty rate. If they just wanted to catch speeders there would be no high profile warnings. It's a shame the measures are necessary when only a small minority of road users (evidently concentrated amongst the motorcyclists) are driving unsafely, but there you go .

It's a very specific problem on a short stretch of road that only occurs for around half of the year during daylight hours when it is dry. Spending between £800,000 and £1.2 million (depending who you believe) 'solving' it I still contend is using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I'd also suspect that a fair number of these crashes occur about or under the speed limit with riders and drivers misreading the bends, running out of road or meeting an oncoming vehicle. Averaging 50mph on the climb up to the Cat from Macclesfield would be challenging - down into Buxton from the pub is easy - even in a 7.5T van.

The Cat and Fiddle is on my doorstep and I ride motorcycles. I also avoid the road when it is likely to be busy with other bikes. I get up at dawn and I am home before breakfast and have the road to myself. And I carry a donor card….

Does anyone know what constitutes a 'major crash' - I seem to recall that the meaning of the phrase 'serious injury' is very flexible when it suits the authorities. Are there legal definitions for either of these?

[fras]

The Cat and Fiddle has been closed for well over a year now. Can it be the ridiculous OTT average speed camera system has forced it out of business ? Nobody can gather there now as the car park is blocked off. Of course we need to be aware that this camera system was installed when the fines were hypothecated and was expected to generate large sums of cash. The police now take very little interest in this road, and the camera system can be avoided by using an alternative road towards the top of it. All the locals use this alternative. It really was a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

[owen b]

Spending between £800,000 and £1.2 million (depending who you believe) 'solving' it I still contend is using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

I cannot see for the life of me how you can possibly compare a long standing safety issue involving many, many fatalities to a walnut . These are real people. Purely on hard unemotional grounds, spending £1 million or so on cameras to improve safety seems like good value with a good payback when you consider the pure economic cost of fatalities and serious accidents avoided.

[Barkstar]

It's a metaphor regarding proportionate response. The word walnut in this context in no way misrepresents the scale of the tragedy nor denigrates it. That sort of spend could make a difference to road safety across the whole county every day. And my experience of the road and it's users tells me that the cameras won't stop a lot of the accidents, better education might or a more visible police presence.

I've seen claims that the accident rate has fallen 25% since the cameras were installed - I'd like to see the methodology used for than, because if we have a cold wet summer vulnerable traffic will fall off by a very significant percentage.

[multiraider2]

Average speed cameras appear to now be TfL policy on all its access controlled dual carriageways - many parts of the A40 and North Circular already have them, and they're being installed on the Blackwall Tunnel Southern Approach. I would expect to see them on the A3 Kingston Bypass and A4 very soon.

I note that the A3 now has 3 SPECS cameras to replace the single stand-alone Gatso that used to have everyone slowing down together on the approach to Hook (and which was about a mile or so after the actual speed limit reduction).

[rhyds]

Do the average speed cameras on the Cat and Fiddle actually pick up bikers? Or is the idea simply to force everything else to slow down to provide some kind of rolling road block?

Locally the A5104 has been downgraded from NSL to 50 for most of its length, also as a response to rocketeers on sportsbikes running out of talent. There's no fixed enforcement on it as yet, but it will only be a matter of time as the road itself simply doesn't warrant a 50mph limit and few cars/vans/HGVs and even fewer bikers adhere to it.

Of course, if Denbighshire, Wrexham and Flintshire councils really wanted to reduce biker casualties they could look at sorting out the appalling road surface.

[Reading]

It's a very specific problem on a short stretch of road that only occurs for around half of the year during daylight hours when it is dry. Spending between £800,000 and £1.2 million (depending who you believe) 'solving' it I still contend is using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. I'd also suspect that a fair number of these crashes occur about or under the speed limit with riders and drivers misreading the bends, running out of road or meeting an oncoming vehicle. Averaging 50mph on the climb up to the Cat from Macclesfield would be challenging - down into Buxton from the pub is easy - even in a 7.5T van.

The Cat and Fiddle is on my doorstep and I ride motorcycles. I also avoid the road when it is likely to be busy with other bikes. I get up at dawn and I am home before breakfast and have the road to myself. And I carry a donor card….

Does anyone know what constitutes a 'major crash' - I seem to recall that the meaning of the phrase 'serious injury' is very flexible when it suits the authorities. Are there legal definitions for either of these?

For road safety stats a serious injury is "An injury for which a person is detained in hospital as an 'in- patient', injury or any of the following injuries whether or not they are detained in hospital: fractures, concussion, internal injuries, crushings, burns (excluding friction burns), severe cuts, severe general shock requiring medical treatment and injuries causing death 30 or more days after the accident. An injured casualty is recorded as seriously or slightly injured by the police on the basis of information available within a short time of the accident. This generally will not reflect the results of a medical examination, but may be influenced according to whether the casualty is hospitalised or not. Hospitalisation procedures will vary regionally" In reality it means if you leave the scene in an ambulance it will be listed as a serious injury in the Police report, even if you are then released by the hospital after assessment.

As for motorcycle friendly barriers it means ones that are designed so a motorcyclist separated from their machine is unlikely to end up coming into contact with an unprotected vertical stanchion or sliding under into another carriageway. Motorcycle unfriendly barriers also include wire rope central reservation barriers which are likened to cheesewire

Cat and fiddle specs failed to be used in a single prosecution as someone showed there were alternative routes between the camera points meaning you couldnt give an accurate average speed, especially as some were NSL unclassified roads where despite being impossible it was legal to be going fast enough to mean a journey on the main route would have to be insanely fast to be quicker than the theoretically shortest time at legal speed

[Owain]

There's no fixed enforcement on it as yet, but it will only be a matter of time as the road itself simply doesn't warrant a 50mph limit and few cars/vans/HGVs and even fewer bikers adhere to it.

Does it always necessarily follow that where no one obeys a limit on a road that's clearly safe for going faster, enforcement will be imposed?

Much of the M621 is 50, yet I've never seen any attempt by the police to enforce, and not much attempt from drivers to comply.

[Chris Bertram]

Does it always necessarily follow that where no one obeys a limit on a road that's clearly safe for going faster, enforcement will be imposed?

Much of the M621 is 50, yet I've never seen any attempt by the police to enforce, and not much attempt from drivers to comply.

Since councils - responsible for setting limits - ceased to listen to the opinions of the police - responsible for enforcement and mopping up after accidents - about what limits they were prepared to enforce, it's less and less likely.