IRL: M50 updates

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bothar
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by bothar »

That's a lot of vehicles.
Its a lot of b**ix, presumably the original report was in the 2006-2007 onwards and upwards period.
However if they continue directing traffic on to the M50, it does have a finite capacity and should not be used as a sink for everything.
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nirs
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by nirs »

odlum wrote:
by 2023 many sections would have traffic flows in excess of 200,000 vehicles per day
That's a lot of vehicles.
It sounds like something from the 1969 Belfast Transportation Plan which was predicting a traffic Armageddon by the 1980s.
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bothar
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by bothar »

It sounds like something from the 1969 Belfast Transportation Plan which was predicting a traffic Armageddon by the 1980s.
"In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure."

There was a bit of over estimation mid decade, which makes a change from the usual pretence that nothing is going to happen.

That said, the economy is somewhat reduced at present, and traffic likewise. In the nature of things, after many years below trend the international economy will probably bounce back quite strongly at some stage and a 10-15% increase in traffic is very possible and some planning is appropriate.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by odlum »

New website here

http://m50concession.com/
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by Chris_533976 »

With the M50 upgrade open a few years now most of the freeflow junctions seem to be working fairly well apart from the fact that city-bound traffic jams up inside the M50 (at the first roundabout/lights) and spills backward. However, I do think that they took the lazy option with J11 (Tallaght) by not really doing much. Also, J12 is an awful fudge of a thing.

SB is at capacity during rush hour. I expect that things will get worse once Newlands is completed as the traffic bottlenecked there will suddenly be on the M50 N and S... just like the new jamups southbound since the M1 bottleneck was cleared when the J3-4 works were done.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by bothar »

Not sure where to post this, a NRA glossy about the their heyday.
http://www.nra.ie/policy-publications/g ... ogress.pdf

Like an ageing Rock group, there are not many new releases, so compilation is in order.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by IrlRon »

OT but there is legislation going through the Irish Parliament at the moment to rename them the "Transport Infrastructure Service", although the only transport infrastructure apart from roads that they'll have responsibility for in the short-term will be the two tram lines in Dublin. (which they are taking over from the itself misnamed Railway Procurement Agency which is being dissolved).

They no longer have responsibility for roads inside the M50 following the mass detrunking, so the synergies are less than you might think.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by Trebeck »

The problem with the M50 is that Dublin acts as a radius for all major motorway routes out.

So, for example, I want to travel from Belfast to Limerick, the line as the crow flies would be diagonally across the country via Edgeworthstown, but the quickest way is to head down the M1, around the M50, and onto the M7.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by AndyB »

There is still the N52 from Dundalk (now apparently quicker to take the N33 from the M1 to Ardee), but it's over half an hour slower. You know things are bad when you even go to Athlone via the M50.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by nirs »

Indeed. It might not stack up against a proper cost-benefit analysis, but there could be merit in a sort of Outer Dublin Bypass connecting the main motorways together whilst avoiding Dublin. Perhaps from the M1 at Dundalk to the M7 at Naas, crossing over the M4 en route.

It wouldn't just improve journey times, but would also take pressure of Dublin's road infrastructure, reducing the need for further investment there.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by si404 »

AndyB wrote:There is still the N52 from Dundalk (now apparently quicker to take the N33 from the M1 to Ardee), but it's over half an hour slower. You know things are bad when you even go to Athlone via the M50.
The N52 was cut back to Ardee, and the section north of Ardee not even becoming an R road. Was it really bad quality? I can understand cutting back north of Ardee and encouraging people to use the motorway, but to not give it R road status strikes me as odd.

This lack of alternatives is why the Dublin Outer Orbital Motorway was in vogue a few years ago.

It's only 4 minutes slower to go via Dublin, rather than the Atlantic route, between Derry and Limerick (according to Google). However, from Omagh to Limerick, while Google says it is two minutes slower via the N55, rather than the M50, it sends you that way anyway.
"“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations" Thomas Jefferson

From the SABRE Wiki: Dublin Outer Orbital Motorway :


Dublin Outer Orbital Motorway is a title given to a vague proposal to bypass the Dublin area completely for long distance traffic, other than that from the N11 corridor.

The motorway stems from the original Co. Dublin economic studies in the 1960s, which made a detailed proposal for a motorway running from Naas to Drogheda, which would carry long-distance traffic and serve Dublin's new western suburbs. The concept was mentioned again in the 1980s, but was considered to be a

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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by bothar »

Newspaper article M50 traffic tops boom.
NRA data (all here) does indeed suggests AADT of 120000+ in some sections.
Location 2014 2013
Between J5 N2 and J4 Ballymun 117526 111171
Between J6 N3 and J5 N2 126062 122207
Between J6 N3/M50 and J7 N4 114606 111957
Between J9 N7 Red Cow and J7 N4 124818 118353
Between J9 N7/M50 Red Cow and J10
Ballymount
85774 ..
Between J12 Firhouse and J11 Tallaght 102077 100204
Between J13 Dundrum and J12 Firhouse,
Balinteer, Co. Dublin
85434 83320
Between J13 Dundrum and J14 Sandyford 56657 54594
Between J14 Dun Laoghaire and J15 Carrickmines 65489 63988
The point is the original congested D2M was upgraded, and the recession kicked in at the same time, so it was difficult to unravel the two effects. So when the article talks about traffic being 30% above boom, this is mostly to do with the upgrade. However, with Ireland's economy expected to grow significantly for the next couple of years, then more traffic is inevitable, probably not the 200,000 mentioned in a previous post though.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by nirs »

That exceeds Northern Ireland's busiest road, which is the M2 foreshore. It had an AADT of 113,400 in 2004 (probably more now). That stretch is a D4M/D5M so doesn't really "feel" as busy as, say, the A12 Westlink which is only about 2/3 of that value but is only D2M in places which makes it appear busier.

The article points out that providing more road space generates more traffic, which is a well-attested and not surprising fact the world over. It's not an entirely negative thing (congestion being one of the key negatives) as it does mean that more travel is being facilitated. However, they are right that unless the M50 is going to be upgraded every ten years at some point the strategy has to change to "managing demand" rather than providing more road space.

It will be interesting to see what proposals emerge from that. An increase in the M50 toll might work, but would obviously be unpopular. Or switch to three separate automatic tolls at three locations, each with 1/3 of the value, rather than a single toll on the western flank. That would discourage people rat-running round the tolls and would reward those going short distances and cost those going longer distances.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by bothar »

There are possibilities on tolls, a higher toll in the peak, like the Port Tunnel might spread the load a bit.

But they also need to look at other things. There is some scope to facilitate local traffic not using the M50, rather than trying to shunt everything on to it. This would involve a new bridge or two over the Liffey. The problem is that everyone would use this to avoid the toll, another reason for tolling all of the M50, so that there is no advantage in using another bridge if you also use part of the M50.

One other reason for provide parallel capacity is to provide redundancy in the event of a closure, for instance we had this load of straw catch fire last week, which caused widespread chaos.

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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by nirs »

I had reason to travel, for the first time, almost the full length of the M50 from the M1 junction round to Dundrum (j13) last week. I have to say, that is one h*ll of a nice road! All the free flow junctions look pretty confusing from the air, but on the motorway itself it's fairly straightforward and well signed. I was on it at around 4.30pm on a weekday and it was very heavily trafficked, but it moved at a steady 30-40mph the whole way. The automatic toll collection point is so discreet that I failed to spot the relevant gantry despite looking out for it. A very nice piece of work.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by M19 »

Chris_533976 wrote:With the M50 upgrade open a few years now most of the freeflow junctions seem to be working fairly well.
We desperately need this kind of treatment on the UK's motorway network. However, the Highways Agency seems happy to do the opposite and waste money on so called upgrades that try an squeeze every drop of capacity from junctions that are well beyond capacity already. It also has a habit of tying new major roads onto the existing network with the sort of junction that might be suitable for a quiet B road, then wonder why it all goes wrong, then attempt to fix it with the lights and extra lanes to make the queues of traffic shorter but much fatter.

There's a lot to learn here.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by Zoney »

bothar wrote:There are possibilities on tolls, a higher toll in the peak, like the Port Tunnel might spread the load a bit.

But they also need to look at other things. There is some scope to facilitate local traffic not using the M50, rather than trying to shunt everything on to it. This would involve a new bridge or two over the Liffey. The problem is that everyone would use this to avoid the toll, another reason for tolling all of the M50, so that there is no advantage in using another bridge if you also use part of the M50.

One other reason for provide parallel capacity is to provide redundancy in the event of a closure, for instance we had this load of straw catch fire last week, which caused widespread chaos.
There comes a point where they aren't going to get more toll revenue anyway as the road gets to capacity. I think actually two parallel routes would make sense - one from Blanchardstown to Lucan (roughly as far out as the current back roads - just not going through the middle of Lucan) and another way out as the N52 dual carriageway (e.g. Type 2) or maybe M52 in part (could be tolled).

Parallel routes work well at spreading the load and allowing for upgrades of each route. It's actually a good thing we have the M1, M2 and N3 as even being so close together, a single motorway with all that traffic would be a monster. As stands, plenty of scope of add lanes to each of these.

The M7/N7 is going to reach a point too where it's hard to upgrade - at some point it might make sense to add the missing M50 junction 8 and bring out a parallel route that only joins the current M7 after Kildare (separate Cork and Limerick/long distance traffic, from the local/Kildare and M9 traffic).

Not so familiar with N4/M4 but I get the impression it's a bit crazy too closer to Dublin? Handles a large section of the country as well as all the local traffic.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by odlum »

nirs wrote:I had reason to travel, for the first time, almost the full length of the M50 from the M1 junction round to Dundrum (j13) last week. I have to say, that is one h*ll of a nice road! All the free flow junctions look pretty confusing from the air, but on the motorway itself it's fairly straightforward and well signed. I was on it at around 4.30pm on a weekday and it was very heavily trafficked, but it moved at a steady 30-40mph the whole way. The automatic toll collection point is so discreet that I failed to spot the relevant gantry despite looking out for it. A very nice piece of work.
`

I have been all over the world on the best and biggest roads and it's up there with the best to drive. The traffic keeps moving and that's a real achievement compared to what went before. It's also well very well maintained. Every night something is happening in terms of road works.

But actually I think the M1 between J3 and 5 is a better build. It's a beautiful stretch to drive. They even planted flowers in the jersey barrier median which are nice.

And I don't mean to be churlish but if you didn't drive the tunnel and missed the southeastern part there is a good bit you didn't use (and see, I love the scenery on the southeastern part) ;)
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by AndyB »

Wesley's post made me laugh, because I drove the entire length of the M50 from the M1 to the M11 within two months of passing my test in August 2009, and most recently in August 2012 (Rosslare-N25-N11-M50-M1-A1-M1-A12-M3-home!) - always seems something wrong when I've driven a major road within 125 miles of our homes and he hasn't! Some parts of the western sector do slow down to 30mph or less in rush hour, but as soon as you hit the 120kph section, you're back in business.

I've used the port tunnel more than once as well, enough to get grumpy when it's closed for maintenance as it sometimes is overnight.
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Re: IRL: M50 updates

Post by odlum »

I think the port tunnel closures are unavoidable. It's such a big project that safety is the top priority. It has to be checked every day and repairs do need to be made because if, god forbid, something really bad happened then maintenance would be the number one culprit.

They won't take such a risk nor should they.

It's just an unavoidable reality of tunnels of this nature around the world. Most of it is bored tunnel and not cut and cover.


As an aside a lot of the motorway maintenance of the entire network has been farmed out to private companies which I fully support. That is the single reason the roads are maintained to the excellent standard they are. If the councils were doing it you could guess...
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