Where are the Little Chefs going?

[avtur]

.... Little Chef were a bit dull and unimaginative but they gave you a decent, hearty meal while out driving. Now what is there?

Last year I drove from Glasgow to Aberdeen for a funeral. The plan was to have something to eat en route. But what was there? Starbucks and Costa, where you’re charged a fiver for a small reheated toastie? McDonalds and Burger King, with simply abysmal food quality? Or shops selling sandwiches for £4 or a 500ml Coke for £2.95!

The only all right one IMO is Greggs but even that is “grab a bite to eat” rather than “a full meal”.

There must be a market for a chain offering a consistent standard of proper meals on major roads.

The Harry Ramsden’s at Charnock Richard did a good breakfast, no frills but perfectly filling, something along those lines, or the cafeteria at Gloucester services. ...

Personally, I don't think there is a sustainable market for "full roadside meals", if there was it would have been identified by a supplier who would be making a killing by supplying that demand. One of the successful traits of LC was the perceived consistency of offering, whatever you liked on their menu could be ordered at any of their outlets with full knowledge that you knew what you were getting. For the most part, that aspect of consistency is something that people still find appealing, but in terms of today's roadside food offerings, it is being met by fast-food suppliers because that is what people want, the success of the current offerings says it all. That isn't to say what's on offer will meet everyone's wishes, but it works for the majority meaning there is no incentive for a supplier to offer anything different.

There are well-established ways of not paying over the odds for travel food, for instance, searching out supermarkets near motorway junctions, where toilets can be found, free parking and convenience food at supermarket prices, not MSA prices ... and of course fuel as well. If I wanted a fuller meal while travelling (which personally is not something that appeals to me) then much as you can search for supermarkets near motorway junction you could search for roadside pubs with eateries (Harveters and the likes)

[traffic-light-man]

Leaving aside the question of how you can be northbound on the East Lancs Road, could this site be what is now the Sing Faye Chinese Restaurant (just west of the A571)? The site looks to be about the right size for a Little Chef.

There was one (westbound) at Haydock which i think is now a Burger King. Looks like somebody had grand plans for it at some point https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/144 ... y-council/

The BK has been boarded up for a while now, IIRC. It was some kind of joint BK and LC for a while, though I never went in there while it was, then it didn't seem to last very long as a BK. Presumably, it would have done much better had it have had a drive-through.

I don't think Sing Faye has ever been a Little Chef. It may refer to the Haydock one, especially with the mention of "(Esso)" - the Haydock one is next to a petrol station (in later years Total, now branded ASDA).

What they were playing at with "Whitston" and "northbound", though, who knows?!

EDIT: This photo on Flickr is captioned "Little Chef Whiston (Knowsley)", so maybe there was one in Whiston after all. The plot thickens.

EDIT AGAIN: Sorry to keep editing the post, but I've found it. I didn't open Rambo's link at first, which shows a picture and is not the Haydock one. It's at the Texaco petrol station just west of Windle Island (eastbound carriageway). But it's still not Whiston.

I don't think the Windle one was ever a LC either, I think that was built new in the 90s as a Nabi's Indian restaurant, a local family that owned quite a few restaurants and 'curry express' takeaways in the area. Having said that, it does seem a bit strange to build that kind of building new in that location, so it could be my memory playing tricks on me.

The only ones I can remember on the A580 were Haydock and Astley, both westbound, both of which are marked on that map in the correct locations. It was just the text that was questionable - I'm used to the boundaries of Prescot being 'stretched' given the local sorting office in Prescot, but not Whiston, which is often sited as being within Prescot on addresses, all of which is still on the opposite side of St Helens from Haydock.

[avtur]

There were three LC sites in East Cheshire that continued as restaurants, Adlington and Monk's Heath became Indians and Disley a Chinese.

[Piatkow]

There were three LC sites in East Cheshire that continued as restaurants, Adlington and Monk's Heath became Indians and Disley a Chinese.

There are several on the A1 as well and, if it is still open, a rather nice noodle bar at Brook Street (M25/A12). They all seem to keep straight restaurant hours though, which is a pain if you want breakfast or to take a break in the afternoon.

[SteelCamel]

Personally, I don't think there is a sustainable market for "full roadside meals", if there was it would have been identified by a supplier who would be making a killing by supplying that demand. One of the successful traits of LC was the perceived consistency of offering, whatever you liked on their menu could be ordered at any of their outlets with full knowledge that you knew what you were getting. For the most part, that aspect of consistency is something that people still find appealing, but in terms of today's roadside food offerings, it is being met by fast-food suppliers because that is what people want, the success of the current offerings says it all. That isn't to say what's on offer will meet everyone's wishes, but it works for the majority meaning there is no incentive for a supplier to offer anything different.

Wetherspoons have one outlet at a motorway services, which would seem to meet the "full meals" and "known brand/consistency" aspects. It's been open six years so there must be some market, though on the other hand they've not opened any more.

[Big L]

Personally, I don't think there is a sustainable market for "full roadside meals", if there was it would have been identified by a supplier who would be making a killing by supplying that demand. One of the successful traits of LC was the perceived consistency of offering, whatever you liked on their menu could be ordered at any of their outlets with full knowledge that you knew what you were getting. For the most part, that aspect of consistency is something that people still find appealing, but in terms of today's roadside food offerings, it is being met by fast-food suppliers because that is what people want, the success of the current offerings says it all. That isn't to say what's on offer will meet everyone's wishes, but it works for the majority meaning there is no incentive for a supplier to offer anything different.

Wetherspoons have one outlet at a motorway services, which would seem to meet the "full meals" and "known brand/consistency" aspects. It's been open six years so there must be some market, though on the other hand they've not opened any more.

There's also a Spoons at the Derby/Burton A50/A38 services I believe.

[avtur]

Personally, I don't think there is a sustainable market for "full roadside meals", if there was it would have been identified by a supplier who would be making a killing by supplying that demand. One of the successful traits of LC was the perceived consistency of offering, whatever you liked on their menu could be ordered at any of their outlets with full knowledge that you knew what you were getting. For the most part, that aspect of consistency is something that people still find appealing, but in terms of today's roadside food offerings, it is being met by fast-food suppliers because that is what people want, the success of the current offerings says it all. That isn't to say what's on offer will meet everyone's wishes, but it works for the majority meaning there is no incentive for a supplier to offer anything different.

Wetherspoons have one outlet at a motorway services, which would seem to meet the "full meals" and "known brand/consistency" aspects. It's been open six years so there must be some market, though on the other hand they've not opened any more.

There's also a Spoons at the Derby/Burton A50/A38 services I believe.

I don't doubt that there are 'odd' examples of a different approach that can be proven to work. However, the fact that such outlets are not scaled up gives an insight into their commercial viability, often they work because they develop a 'local' reputation and they become destinations in their own right, not 'just another roadside option'. I think I've mentioned way back up the thread that Mrs Avtur was a unit manager for LC back in the late 80's, her unit was a goldmine, but not because it was situated on a great route with huge amounts of traffic, it was because it developed a local reputation for service and quality and the vast majority of its customers were locals who traveled there specifically because of where and what it was.

The regular customers were very much the retired (dare I say it 'blue rinse brigade' - and their husbands), they visited because it was their chosen destination, not an en-route refreshment stop. The LC estate was a mixture of well-placed stops for distance travelers and these oddball local attractions which made a huge amount (of profit) from their local clientele. The management structure, above unit level, was just dreadful, so chauvinistic, they treated the unit staff (almost always entirely female) appallingly. Mrs Avtur got a break when she was overseen by one of the first female area managers, she gave Mrs Avtur freedom and support in looking after the valuable regular local customers, they made a fortune for THF but it was never properly recognised. In a supporting role, yours truly, played the role of 'Santa' two years in a row so that the 'blue rinse' customers could bring their grandchildren to the unit for a wonderful seasonal welcome ... ho,ho, ho, .... what with DBS and all that it wouldn't be allowed these days. There was no risk, I'm decent and trustworthy and also spent much time in classrooms as a parent helper ... honestly!!

[Glenn A]

I do recall Frankie and Benny's going down the Little Chef route by opening some restaurants near major roads. I visited one near the A77 Ayr by pass and found it reasonably priced and clean, but the portions and quality were nothing great and the Americana was the obvious James Dean and American car photos. Far better are independently run American style restaurants that don't have some corporate style and fixed menus.

That one has closed down. There is a Tim Horton's next door.

This was back in 2013 and it was OK, but obviously everything was done in a corporate, one size fits all manner. Similarly Pizza Express and Pizza Hut, which are exercises in mediocrity, are the same and did start to expand near busy roads.

[Uncle Buck]

Hmm, perhaps Beefeater or Harvester fill the niche I’m thinking of then?

Certainly I used to live in an area where the Beefeater was a popular place for families.

Just neither of these have the recognisability or (I think) coverage that Little Chefs had.

[Ruperts Trooper]

Hmm, perhaps Beefeater or Harvester fill the niche I’m thinking of then?

Certainly I used to live in an area where the Beefeater was a popular place for families.

Just neither of these have the recognisability or (I think) coverage that Little Chefs had.

We find Whitbread's Brewer's Fayre and Table Table consistently useful - often near motorway and main road junctions.

[Big L]

We find Whitbread's Brewer's Fayre and Table Table consistently useful - often near motorway and main road junctions.

Almost all Premier Inns have one of those two, or a Beefeater.

[Ruperts Trooper]

We find Whitbread's Brewer's Fayre and Table Table consistently useful - often near motorway and main road junctions.

Almost all Premier Inns have one of those two, or a Beefeater.

I believe they're all Whitbread brands.

[Big L]

We find Whitbread's Brewer's Fayre and Table Table consistently useful - often near motorway and main road junctions.

Almost all Premier Inns have one of those two, or a Beefeater.

I believe they're all Whitbread brands.

Including Premier Inn, and also Costa I think.

[KeithW]

I don't doubt that there are 'odd' examples of a different approach that can be proven to work. However, the fact that such outlets are not scaled up gives an insight into their commercial viability, often they work because they develop a 'local' reputation and they become destinations in their own right, not 'just another roadside option'. I think I've mentioned way back up the thread that Mrs Avtur was a unit manager for LC back in the late 80's, her unit was a goldmine, but not because it was situated on a great route with huge amounts of traffic, it was because it developed a local reputation for service and quality and the vast majority of its customers were locals who traveled there specifically because of where and what it was.

The regular customers were very much the retired (dare I say it 'blue rinse brigade' - and their husbands), they visited because it was their chosen destination, not an en-route refreshment stop. The LC estate was a mixture of well-placed stops for distance travelers and these oddball local attractions which made a huge amount (of profit) from their local clientele. The management structure, above unit level, was just dreadful, so chauvinistic, they treated the unit staff (almost always entirely female) appallingly. Mrs Avtur got a break when she was overseen by one of the first female area managers, she gave Mrs Avtur freedom and support in looking after the valuable regular local customers, they made a fortune for THF but it was never properly recognised. In a supporting role, yours truly, played the role of 'Santa' two years in a row so that the 'blue rinse' customers could bring their grandchildren to the unit for a wonderful seasonal welcome ... ho,ho, ho, .... what with DBS and all that it wouldn't be allowed these days. There was no risk, I'm decent and trustworthy and also spent much time in classrooms as a parent helper ... honestly!!

There was I believe more than one category of regular customers. I used to work irregular hours and being single after a late evening I often used to use the LC at Caxton Gibbet on my way home from Cambridge rather than faff around cooking at home, it was on my route and there was adequate parking. There were other regulars who I would recognise. It was an ideal location to capture the late evening commuter trade. Mine was fairly typical at about 20 miles. Typically I'd order Gammon Steak , eggs and chips or fish and chips. The last time i went in the gammon was more suited to soleing my shoes than eating and had obviously been in the hot cabinet all day, the egg was worse and had the consistency of a rubber frisbee.

[Uncle Buck]

Almost all Premier Inns have one of those two, or a Beefeater.

I believe they're all Whitbread brands.

Including Premier Inn, and also Costa I think.

Costa used to be, but was sold to Coca Cola a while ago

[Hdeng16]

Not all are Whitbread pubs either - due to various takeovers Premier Inns are sometimes alongside non-owned pubs. I think the ex-premier lodges are mostly next to non-Whitbread pubs for example

[Big L]

Not all are Whitbread pubs either - due to various takeovers Premier Inns are sometimes alongside non-owned pubs. I think the ex-premier lodges are mostly next to non-Whitbread pubs for example

I've stayed at a couple that were next to Chef & Brewer pubs (Greene King), and one with a Harvester.

[Duncan]

.... Little Chef were a bit dull and unimaginative but they gave you a decent, hearty meal while out driving. Now what is there?

Last year I drove from Glasgow to Aberdeen for a funeral. The plan was to have something to eat en route. But what was there? Starbucks and Costa, where you’re charged a fiver for a small reheated toastie? McDonalds and Burger King, with simply abysmal food quality? Or shops selling sandwiches for £4 or a 500ml Coke for £2.95!

The only all right one IMO is Greggs but even that is “grab a bite to eat” rather than “a full meal”.

There must be a market for a chain offering a consistent standard of proper meals on major roads.

The Harry Ramsden’s at Charnock Richard did a good breakfast, no frills but perfectly filling, something along those lines, or the cafeteria at Gloucester services. ...

Personally, I don't think there is a sustainable market for "full roadside meals", if there was it would have been identified by a supplier who would be making a killing by supplying that demand. One of the successful traits of LC was the perceived consistency of offering, whatever you liked on their menu could be ordered at any of their outlets with full knowledge that you knew what you were getting. For the most part, that aspect of consistency is something that people still find appealing, but in terms of today's roadside food offerings, it is being met by fast-food suppliers because that is what people want, the success of the current offerings says it all. That isn't to say what's on offer will meet everyone's wishes, but it works for the majority meaning there is no incentive for a supplier to offer anything different.

It's not just the roads. Hardly any of the railway companies have restaurant cars on their trains anymore, and full meals are confined to a few key business trains, and for First Class ticket holders only. I think only First Great Western has any traditional restaurant car services, and that's just on a couple of trains to the West Country (the Welsh Government's Gerallt Cymru train from Cardiff to Holyhead and return is currently suspended, owing to the COVID-19 situation), and hot buffets are few and far between. Barry Doe in Rail Magazine and Peter Caton in The Next Station Stop have berated the loss of these facilities, particularly on the East Anglian Main Line, but presumably the same trends apply here as on the roads, and such facilities are not profitable (at one time, Barry Doe's local line, the Bournemouth Main Line, virtually had full restaurant cars; from what he has said, the concession for the line, when it is issued, will not even require the operator to supply a trolley service.

I personally think it is a pity, as whereas motorway food has justifiably had a poor reputation (though the Westmorland examples show that it can succeed if done well), one could normally get a very good meal in railway restaurant cars, and I found First Great Western's Travelling Chef very useful when I travelled to Cornwall and Ceredigion on research trips in 2011. That service has now been withdrawn, and as far as I know, the new Class 800 trains have no buffet facility at all (travelling to Bristol in 2019 only a trolley service was offered). The same applies to the Class 745 units on the East Anglian Main Line.

[the cheesecake man]

Personally, I don't think there is a sustainable market for "full roadside meals", if there was it would have been identified by a supplier who would be making a killing by supplying that demand. One of the successful traits of LC was the perceived consistency of offering, whatever you liked on their menu could be ordered at any of their outlets with full knowledge that you knew what you were getting. For the most part, that aspect of consistency is something that people still find appealing, but in terms of today's roadside food offerings, it is being met by fast-food suppliers because that is what people want, the success of the current offerings says it all. That isn't to say what's on offer will meet everyone's wishes, but it works for the majority meaning there is no incentive for a supplier to offer anything different.

There used to be hence in the 80s and 90s Little Chefs on A roads were always busy and motorway service stations (while poor quality and expensive) all had cafeterias serving full meals. There no longer is for the reasons explained throughout this thread. Some of them relate specifically to Little Chef but many of them apply equally to the entire concept.

It's not just the roads. Hardly any of the railway companies have restaurant cars on their trains anymore, and full meals are confined to a few key business trains, and for First Class ticket holders only. I think only First Great Western has any traditional restaurant car services...

And of course airlines. Before EasyJet and Ryanair changed everything every flight came with a decent meal. I remember having breakfasts on flights from Manchester to Belfast and Dublin. It was crazy really cramming it in the 40 minutes available (and they only just managed it), but the idea of a flight without a meal was inconceivable to airlines and passengers in those days.

I personally think it is a pity...

So do I. That's capitalism for you. It often provides choice but sometimes it suppresses it.

[trickstat]

And of course airlines. Before EasyJet and Ryanair changed everything every flight came with a decent meal. I remember having breakfasts on flights from Manchester to Belfast and Dublin. It was crazy really cramming it in the 40 minutes available (and they only just managed it), but the idea of a flight without a meal was inconceivable to airlines and passengers in those days.

What I also found crazy was that quite often those meals might be served in the middle of the morning, when I suspect most people have had a breakfast but aren't ready for lunch, or mid-afternoon, when it was late to be having lunch but rather early for dinner/tea/supper.