Dualling the A1237

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Peter Freeman
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Peter Freeman »

KeithW wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 09:41 This was the local intersection I used every day.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@40.08900 ... !1e3?hl=en
Small world!

In 1980 I was based for several months at a company (Industrial Nucleonics, no longer existing) on Ackerman Road. It's just down 315 (my 'local freeway' then) from your intersection. I would have driven your intersection many times (and most other freeways in Columbus) as I often visited friends, and ate out, in Dublin suburb not far away from there.

I'd already been a roads enthusiast for many years, in the UK, RSA and Australia, but that first time in America (one of many since) really opened my eyes!
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KeithW
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by KeithW »

Peter Freeman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:45
KeithW wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 09:41 This was the local intersection I used every day.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@40.08900 ... !1e3?hl=en
Small world!

In 1980 I was based for several months at a company (Industrial Nucleonics, no longer existing) on Ackerman Road. It's just down I315 (my 'local freeway' then) from your intersection. I would have driven your intersection many times (and most other freeways in Columbus) as I often visited friends, and ate out, in Dublin suburb not far away from there.

I'd already been a roads enthusiast for many years, in the UK, RSA and Australia, but that first time in America (one of many since) really opened my eyes!
I lived in Dublin for a while - an apartment in this block in fact - an upmarket bedsit but it had cable TV, a full kitchen and internet (free call dial up)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@40.09097 ... 8192?hl=en

I was working at AEP in downtown Columbus.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@39.96589 ... 8192?hl=en

I suspect we took the same route to work. West Dublin Granville Road and then SR 315, in my case down to Vine Street and Neil Avenue. The thing I do recall was the winters - boy was it cold. The Scioto River looked pretty though when it was frozen over.
Rillington
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Rillington »

jackal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 15:43 An update. Dualling of the northern part of the A1237, from A19 Shipton Road to A1036 Little Hopgrove, is anticipated to start in mid-2023, with construction lasting 2 years. The improvement includes enlargement of roundabouts.

https://www.york.gov.uk/YORR
Good news.

Is the plan to retain some/all the roundabouts, as surely it would make more sense to find a way for the roundabouts to be used for local traffic with GSJs replacing some or all of the roundabouts.
Rillington
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Rillington »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 16:06
jackal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 15:43 An update. Dualling of the northern part of the A1237, from A19 Shipton Road to A1036 Little Hopgrove, is anticipated to start in mid-2023, with construction lasting 2 years. The improvement includes enlargement of roundabouts.
Typical... the half I use the least, as opposed to the A19 to A64 (Askham)
My guess is that that section is less sued when compared to the A19 to A64. Plus there's be a huge cost increase due to having to build a new crossing of the Ouse and the ECML.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by jackal »

Rillington wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 14:57
jackal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 15:43 An update. Dualling of the northern part of the A1237, from A19 Shipton Road to A1036 Little Hopgrove, is anticipated to start in mid-2023, with construction lasting 2 years. The improvement includes enlargement of roundabouts.

https://www.york.gov.uk/YORR
Good news.

Is the plan to retain some/all the roundabouts, as surely it would make more sense to find a way for the roundabouts to be used for local traffic with GSJs replacing some or all of the roundabouts.
I think all rbts will be retained.

This is not part of the strategic network so GSJs were never really on the agenda, though of course that would be ideal.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by NICK 647063 »

Rillington wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 14:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 16:06
jackal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 15:43 An update. Dualling of the northern part of the A1237, from A19 Shipton Road to A1036 Little Hopgrove, is anticipated to start in mid-2023, with construction lasting 2 years. The improvement includes enlargement of roundabouts.
Typical... the half I use the least, as opposed to the A19 to A64 (Askham)
My guess is that that section is less sued when compared to the A19 to A64. Plus there's be a huge cost increase due to having to build a new crossing of the Ouse and the ECML.
A19 to A64 Hopgrove is phase 1 but I have seen details of phase 2 A19 to B1224, obviously the phase 1 could result in some pressure getting taken off the A19 to A59 section as many will reroute on the new dualled section.

The A19 to A59 section is actually the busiest around 38k vehicles per day but also the most challenging engineering wise.
Peter Freeman
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Peter Freeman »

KeithW wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 13:17 I suspect we took the same route to work. West Dublin Granville Road and then SR 315, in my case down to Vine Street and Neil Avenue. The thing I do recall was the winters - boy was it cold. The Scioto River looked pretty though when it was frozen over.
Not my route. Most of my time I stayed at the Hilton on Olentangy River Road, only about a kilometre - oops, a mile - from work. I did still often drive in, owing to the cold weather that you mentioned - I arrived there in early March, from an Australian summer.

And I had a company car: a Pontiac Parisienne - it was in the old days of big American cars. One of my earliest trips in the car was a complete circuit of the city's impressive Beltway - fairly recently completed I think, at that time (1980). That's a very different experience from circling York on the A64 and A1237! (That brings us back on topic, so we won't get suspended for digressing).
Peter Freeman
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Peter Freeman »

Stevie D wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:31 What is the capacity difference of a roundabout with 3-lane approach and circulation and 2-lane exit, compared to a signalised junction with similar land-take? Genuine question, I would be interested to know the maximum peak-flow throughput, typical peak-time delays and typical off-peak delays for different models.
I can't provide any figures, but Jackal's US-sourced answer is probably near enough for roundabout capacity. The qualitative answer to your question though, as you've phrased it relative to land-take, is that a well-designed and properly marked 4-way signalised crossroad has more capacity than a 4-arm give-way roundabout. It simply doesn't have that big empty circle in the middle. The patch of asphalt within a well-designed cross-roads is constantly and densely full of moving vehicles. That patch, at an ex-roundabout site, is quite large.

A fully signalised roundabout's figure will lie in-between. And let's not get into hamburgers!

When increasing demand is getting close to roundabout capacity, there will come a crossover figure at which the benefit flips over. Within a band of figures near there, the choice between the two options may be arbitrary. It becomes a psychological issue. Roundabout: long, long queues and delays under peak flow, delay-free off-peak. Cross-roads: higher and more predictable flow under load, irritating short delays at nearly every encounter, even when not busy. Tolerance for these different delay regimes will vary from driver to driver, and from society to society (country to country). And there will be a cultural and historical bias involved in any decision.

I would like the UK to reconsider part-time roundabout signalisation. I know we've discussed it many times. Although there's supposedly an issue about the approach geometry being different for the two cases, I don't really understand that in detail. What's the problem? Safety?

Also, an alternative is approach metering, to break dominant flows, create gaps, and thereby alleviate entry hesitancy. This has been tried at a number of Melbourne locations over many years, and has seemed effective to me, but only a couple of sites are still active. I don't know why. Has it also been tried in the UK?
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Rillington »

jackal wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 17:12
Rillington wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 14:57
jackal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 15:43 An update. Dualling of the northern part of the A1237, from A19 Shipton Road to A1036 Little Hopgrove, is anticipated to start in mid-2023, with construction lasting 2 years. The improvement includes enlargement of roundabouts.

https://www.york.gov.uk/YORR
Good news.

Is the plan to retain some/all the roundabouts, as surely it would make more sense to find a way for the roundabouts to be used for local traffic with GSJs replacing some or all of the roundabouts.
I think all rbts will be retained.

This is not part of the strategic network so GSJs were never really on the agenda, though of course that would be ideal.
I hope that turns out not to but the case as taking out the roundabouts from a dualled A1237 would make traffic flow a lot better, whilst retaining the roundabouts as part of a parallel local road. The only disadvantage would be the need to probably build a brand new road.
Last edited by Rillington on Sat Nov 13, 2021 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Rillington »

NICK 647063 wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 20:04
Rillington wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 14:59
Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 16:06
Typical... the half I use the least, as opposed to the A19 to A64 (Askham)
My guess is that that section is less sued when compared to the A19 to A64. Plus there's be a huge cost increase due to having to build a new crossing of the Ouse and the ECML.
A19 to A64 Hopgrove is phase 1 but I have seen details of phase 2 A19 to B1224, obviously the phase 1 could result in some pressure getting taken off the A19 to A59 section as many will reroute on the new dualled section.

The A19 to A59 section is actually the busiest around 38k vehicles per day but also the most challenging engineering wise.
That does surprise me somewhat as I always thought that the western section was less busy than the northern section. This probably adds to the need for dualling that bit but the cost of another spa across the river and railway would massively add to the cost. One compromise might be to just dual the stretch between the A64 and A59.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

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Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 13:59Also, an alternative is approach metering, to break dominant flows, create gaps, and thereby alleviate entry hesitancy. This has been tried at a number of Melbourne locations over many years, and has seemed effective to me, but only a couple of sites are still active. I don't know why. Has it also been tried in the UK?
I don’t know whether there were other trials, but the only one I’m aware of was on the A40 Western Avenue at Greenford Roundabout, in a late 1950s experiment run by the RRL. It was considered highly unsuccessful and not repeated. But there are a few examples of approach metering in the UK now, with I imagine varying levels of success.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 19:17
Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 13:59Also, an alternative is approach metering, to break dominant flows, create gaps, and thereby alleviate entry hesitancy. This has been tried at a number of Melbourne locations over many years, and has seemed effective to me, but only a couple of sites are still active. I don't know why. Has it also been tried in the UK?
I don’t know whether there were other trials, but the only one I’m aware of was on the A40 Western Avenue at Greenford Roundabout, in a late 1950s experiment run by the RRL. It was considered highly unsuccessful and not repeated. But there are a few examples of approach metering in the UK now, with I imagine varying levels of success.
Sheffield has a few, and so does Preston. The concept is preferable to full signalisation where a single dominant arm exists.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:11
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 19:17
Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 13:59Also, an alternative is approach metering, to break dominant flows, create gaps, and thereby alleviate entry hesitancy. This has been tried at a number of Melbourne locations over many years, and has seemed effective to me, but only a couple of sites are still active. I don't know why. Has it also been tried in the UK?
I don’t know whether there were other trials, but the only one I’m aware of was on the A40 Western Avenue at Greenford Roundabout, in a late 1950s experiment run by the RRL. It was considered highly unsuccessful and not repeated. But there are a few examples of approach metering in the UK now, with I imagine varying levels of success.
Sheffield has a few, and so does Preston. The concept is preferable to full signalisation where a single dominant arm exists.
One is being built under the M4 as part of the North Wokingham Distributor Road: holding back traffic approaching the roundabout south of the M4 to allow vehicles to enter the roundabout from other arms. (See 1:30 in the embedded video on the link)
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by ravenbluemoon »

Rillington wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 15:24 That does surprise me somewhat as I always thought that the western section was less busy than the northern section. This probably adds to the need for dualling that bit but the cost of another spa across the river and railway would massively add to the cost. One compromise might be to just dual the stretch between the A64 and A59.
The northern section has two big traffic generators, namely Clifton Moor and Monk's Cross shopping/industrial estates. There's not really any easy way to get to either without using the A1237, or by slogging it around the suburbs. Certainly from Acomb (where I grew up) it was a choice of the ring road, or trying to get over Clifton Bridge, round the Green and heading along Water Lane. Monk's Cross was a real pest to get to - and possibly one reason why I still can't be bothered to visit the new Community Stadium.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Peter Freeman »

ChrisH wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 14:23
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:11
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 19:17
I don’t know whether there were other trials, but the only one I’m aware of was on the A40 Western Avenue at Greenford Roundabout, in a late 1950s experiment run by the RRL. It was considered highly unsuccessful and not repeated. But there are a few examples of approach metering in the UK now, with I imagine varying levels of success.
Sheffield has a few, and so does Preston. The concept is preferable to full signalisation where a single dominant arm exists.
One is being built under the M4 as part of the North Wokingham Distributor Road: holding back traffic approaching the roundabout south of the M4 to allow vehicles to enter the roundabout from other arms. (See 1:30 in the embedded video on the link)
Is that actually the function of those signals, or are they merely part of the pedestrian crossing? In either case, will they be triggered by traffic detectors, or merely by pedestrian request? In AU, they're triggered by queue length detectors.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by ChrisH »

Peter Freeman wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 22:36
ChrisH wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 14:23
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:11

Sheffield has a few, and so does Preston. The concept is preferable to full signalisation where a single dominant arm exists.
One is being built under the M4 as part of the North Wokingham Distributor Road: holding back traffic approaching the roundabout south of the M4 to allow vehicles to enter the roundabout from other arms. (See 1:30 in the embedded video on the link)
Is that actually the function of those signals, or are they merely part of the pedestrian crossing? In either case, will they be triggered by traffic detectors, or merely by pedestrian request? In AU, they're triggered by queue length detectors.
I believe they are separate from the crossing, although as you say the crossing fulfils the same function (if called). I would imagine they would come in either on a timer or with queue length detectors at peak times.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by Rillington »

ravenbluemoon wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 22:23
Rillington wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 15:24 That does surprise me somewhat as I always thought that the western section was less busy than the northern section. This probably adds to the need for dualling that bit but the cost of another spa across the river and railway would massively add to the cost. One compromise might be to just dual the stretch between the A64 and A59.
The northern section has two big traffic generators, namely Clifton Moor and Monk's Cross shopping/industrial estates. There's not really any easy way to get to either without using the A1237, or by slogging it around the suburbs. Certainly from Acomb (where I grew up) it was a choice of the ring road, or trying to get over Clifton Bridge, round the Green and heading along Water Lane. Monk's Cross was a real pest to get to - and possibly one reason why I still can't be bothered to visit the new Community Stadium.
And if it hadn't have been for the A1237, it's likely that neither would have been developed.

Has the development of the Millfield Lane Industrial estate resulted in a significant increase in traffic on that stretch of the road?
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

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Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 13:59 Also, an alternative is approach metering, to break dominant flows, create gaps, and thereby alleviate entry hesitancy. This has been tried at a number of Melbourne locations over many years, and has seemed effective to me, but only a couple of sites are still active. I don't know why. Has it also been tried in the UK?
Yes see this thread for some examples.
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Re: A1237 York outer ring road dualling!

Post by NICK 647063 »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:11
Chris5156 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 19:17
Peter Freeman wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 13:59Also, an alternative is approach metering, to break dominant flows, create gaps, and thereby alleviate entry hesitancy. This has been tried at a number of Melbourne locations over many years, and has seemed effective to me, but only a couple of sites are still active. I don't know why. Has it also been tried in the UK?
I don’t know whether there were other trials, but the only one I’m aware of was on the A40 Western Avenue at Greenford Roundabout, in a late 1950s experiment run by the RRL. It was considered highly unsuccessful and not repeated. But there are a few examples of approach metering in the UK now, with I imagine varying levels of success.
Sheffield has a few, and so does Preston. The concept is preferable to full signalisation where a single dominant arm exists.
A newish one in the last few years is the A63 east Leeds link road heading towards Leeds from the M1 J45, they installed traffic signals to stop 3 lanes of traffic prior to the Park and Ride roundabout, these operate in the evenings to break flow to allow the park and ride to exit.

I also remember funnily enough the A1237 westbound approach to the A59 roundabout have the cabling installed when the roundabout was upgraded 8 years ago to allow signals to be added prior to the roundabout to break flow if required in future!
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A19 to Hop Grove dualling plans submitted

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From the BBC website:
"Plans to turn a large section of York's outer ring road into a dual carriageway have been submitted by the council.

A 4.6-mile (7.5km) section of the A1237 would be turned into a dual carriageway in both directions between the A19 Shipton Road and the A1036 at Little Hopgrove, if the application gets the go-ahead.

Roundabouts at Clifton Moor, Wigginton Road, Haxby Road, Strensall Road and Monks Cross would also be increased in size.

The route would also be improved for cyclists and pedestrians, according to City of York Council, with plans for a 3.1-mile (5.1km) footpath between Shipton Road and Strensall Road, a signalled crossing at Monks Cross roundabout and new underpasses.

Work is expected to start in 2023 if the planning application is approved and the project is expected to be finished by 2025, a council spokesperson said."
So it looks as though this might finally happen, and long overdue it is too.

I'm not sure that leaving the roundabouts in place will do much to reduce travel times as really it should be built as a through route with a GSJ junction at the B1363 with the old road with roundabouts retained as a local access route. but at least it will increase capacity, and hopefully reduce congestion, on what is an extremely busy road.
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