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SteveA30 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:58
Why a £35 million contract? I thought archaeological digs were the preserve of volunteers groups. How many previous digs have been under a contract?
Pretty much every major contract in recent years both for road construction and urban redevelopment has included a full archaeological investigation.
While volunteers may provide help to digs archaeology is a science not a bunch of amateurs scraping with trowels. The first pass is usually a full geophysical survey using methods such as ground penetrating radar, resistivity and a magnetic survey.
Once you dig it up it has gone, the least we can do is record what we are destroying.
SteveA30 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:58
Why a £35 million contract? I thought archaeological digs were the preserve of volunteers groups. How many previous digs have been under a contract?
Phil Harding clearly doesn't come cheap... especially now Time Team is finished.
Interestingly enough, last summer we visited Stonehenge, and Phil was there talking to all and sundry about the tunnel - "least worst option" was the summary.
Micro The Maniac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 06:17
Phil Harding clearly doesn't come cheap... especially now Time Team is finished.
Interestingly enough, last summer we visited Stonehenge, and Phil was there talking to all and sundry about the tunnel - "least worst option" was the summary.
Thanks to programs such a Time Team, the Big Dig and Digging Up Britain's past as well agencies such as Historic England and the National Trust we have seen a considerable expansion in archaeology in the UK because there are now legal requirements to investigate sites of interest. The increase in road and rail construction as a well as commercial development has been a direct driver.
https://www.archaeologists.net/sites/default/files/Archaeological%20Market%20Survey%202017-18.pdf wrote:
• There were more people working as professional archaeologists in 2017-18 than at
any time before.
• An estimated 4,908 people were working in UK applied, commercial archaeology in
2017-18. This was significantly more than immediately before the economic
downturn of 2007-08, and can be considered to be the largest this workforce has ever
been.
• It is estimated that the applied, commercial archaeological workforce grew by 12.8%
in financial year 2017-18.
• In comparison with the previous year, the rate of workforce expansion had slowed
slightly; the ap
Heaven alone knows how much historical data was lost in the past when the railways and motorways were first being built, we do know the original construction of the A303 cut a destructive swathe across the landscape which is why historians are now so sensitive.
KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:09
Heaven alone knows how much historical data was lost in the past when the railways and motorways were first being built, we do know the original construction of the A303 cut a destructive swathe across the landscape which is why historians are now so sensitive.
"The original construction of the A303". Interesting. Which bit? The road is based on several ancient routes, are you meaning them or some later improvement?
KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:09
Heaven alone knows how much historical data was lost in the past when the railways and motorways were first being built, we do know the original construction of the A303 cut a destructive swathe across the landscape which is why historians are now so sensitive.
"The original construction of the A303". Interesting. Which bit? The road is based on several ancient routes, are you meaning them or some later improvement?
Well the A303 wasnt even classified until 1933 and given the section under discussion is that between Amesbury and Winterbourne Stoke that narrows the field a bit. So no my concern is not about a 4000 year old trackway or even a Roman Road I was referring to the 1960's D2 Amesbury bypass
KeithW wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 15:03
While volunteers may provide help to digs archaeology is a science not a bunch of amateurs scraping with trowels.
However due to the vast size of road schemes and time pressures, the archaeological site teams are often flooded with bored-to-death students, travellers & backpackers, hippies rejecting modern society and old-timers desperate to be important. They are all the trowel-scrapers working under the supervision of a handful of serious, experienced & qualified professionals who manage the digs.
The way archaeology is done on these large projects seriously needs rethinking as it is hugely inefficient. A very important job and one that should be done correcrly and thoroughly, but the lack of experienced team members results in a lot of wasted time. As others have said, there are bypasses being built for less than £35m.
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However due to the vast size of road schemes and time pressures, the archaeological site teams are often flooded with bored-to-death students, travellers & backpackers, hippies rejecting modern society and old-timers desperate to be important. They are all the trowel-scrapers working under the supervision of a handful of serious, experienced & qualified professionals who manage the digs.
The way archaeology is done on these large projects seriously needs rethinking as it is hugely inefficient. A very important job and one that should be done correcrly and thoroughly, but the lack of experienced team members results in a lot of wasted time. As others have said, there are bypasses being built for less than £35m.
It wasn't even like that 50 years ago when as a student I was an unpaid barrow pusher on a rescue dig, methinks you do protest too much. As for time pressure it certainly exists but much depends on the nature of the site. The Leeming to Barton project completion was extended due to the extent and d quality of the archaeology found. If cost was all anybody cared about I suppose we could bulldoze the Stonehenge and use the Sarson Stones as hardcore but that seems like a bad idea with regard to a world heritage site.
There are more qualified archaeologists now than has ever been the case and they are better equipped when it come to geophysical survey than ever before. Were I on a dig today today I would likely be pushing a ground penetrating radar. However the reality remains that you dont know what will be found until you dig it. That said archaeological risks are factored into the planning of major road schemes and managed like any other. In fact most major digs are carried out by professional archaeological companies who have to tender for work just like any other company. They did a cracking job on Leeming to Barton and on the new A14.
Richardf wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 17:11
I think maybe the stones are overrated. Been past a only a handful of times ( dont use that bit of the A303 much) and almost missed them each time!! The arent as impressive or stand out as much as people who have never seen them think.
Wouldnt pay the admission price to see them close up either!
KeithW wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 15:03
While volunteers may provide help to digs archaeology is a science not a bunch of amateurs scraping with trowels.
However due to the vast size of road schemes and time pressures, the archaeological site teams are often flooded with bored-to-death students, travellers & backpackers, hippies rejecting modern society and old-timers desperate to be important. They are all the trowel-scrapers working under the supervision of a handful of serious, experienced & qualified professionals who manage the digs.
The way archaeology is done on these large projects seriously needs rethinking as it is hugely inefficient. A very important job and one that should be done correcrly and thoroughly, but the lack of experienced team members results in a lot of wasted time. As others have said, there are bypasses being built for less than £35m.
Given my cousins experience I would suggest that if archaeology was a secure job with a regular income, there would be a lot more professional trench-diggers and trowel scrapers. He quit digging and joined the Civil Service to ensure he could afford a home to live in. Working 2 weeks here and 3 months there with several spells of unemployment didn't endear the business to him despite his degree in history.
Considering that the entire section being upgraded is about 7 miles (roughly 11km) in length, I think £35m is pretty cheap for an archaeological survey/dig. £5m/mile of upgraded road, not including the area on each side of the route upgrade that would probably need looking at.
Let's say they look at 100m each side of the central reservation, that is 11km*0.1km*2 = roughly 2.2km^2 (2,200,000m^2)
£35,000,000/2.2km^2 = £15,900,000/km^2.
£35,000,000/2,200,000m^2 = £15.90/m^2
I think that rough estimates of £15.90/m^2 is a reasonable sum of money for an archaeological survey, dig and analysis
KeithW wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:08
It was a nice attempt to wind me up but I fear you missed your target.
"Methinks" you misunderstood me.
I'm not trying to wind anyone up. I fully support the archaeological dig element of major projects. I've worked on many major projects including the A14 managing the archaeologists and am talking from my own experience.
Yes the digs are done by professional companies such as MOLA , Headland etc - in reality they have so few team members they all work together and utilise smaller groups too. However elements of the archaeology are mismanaged and allowed to overrun "because it's archeology" having a knock-on effect to the rest of the work a and increasing costs. One field, where a new bridge was going, overran by 6 months and during most of those 6 months were a few teenagers playing on their phones and not much digging, until the last week when a decision maker was finally drafted in and gave the all-clear that it could be handed over to construction teams.
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It has been bitterly debated for the past three decades, but the latest plans to partly bury the A303 in a tunnel beside Stonehenge may this week finally get approval from transport secretary Grant Shapps. The £2.4bn scheme – which will see the traffic-choked road to the west country widened into a dual carriageway near the ancient site before shooting down a two-mile tunnel – has pitted archaeologists, local campaigners and even the nation’s druids against the combined might of Highways England, English Heritage and the National Trust.
There was a bit of activity there yesterday. They had put down some mat things across the fields directly south, parallel to the A303. I assume this is for better traction/not tearing up the ground
A320Driver wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:11
Announcement due on Friday...
And unlike HS2 and the third Heathrow runway, the MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip can actually do what is best for the country without having to take his constituents' views into consideration.
