Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
fras
Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by fras »

At one time we did look forwards with eager anticipation, but when one looks at what is built to replace the old buildings, one can see why we have become rather backwards looking.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.05667 ... 8192?hl=en
and here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.00175 ... 6656?hl=en
User avatar
hoagy_ytfc
Member
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 00:10

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

I'd say the first of those is rather handsome! The other new thing a few doors to the left - not so much.
fras
Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by fras »

hoagy_ytfc wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 21:25 I'd say the first of those is rather handsome! The other new thing a few doors to the left - not so much.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder !

Actually, talking of modern buildings, I was rather sad the Birmingham Central Library built in the 1970s was demolished. I came to Birmingham to live in 1971 and watched the developments on Paradise Circus where the new library was located. This was designed by the John Madin Design Group in the "brutalist" style. It was originally intended to be clad in Portland Stone, but this was never done, so never looked the part that the architect intended. There was also a very nice School of Music alongside, and underneath was a bus station that never opened !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingha ... al_Library

The plans for Paradise Circus were never completed, and now there are soulless modern buildings there, of no architectural merit whatsoever. See if you agree or not: -

https://www.paradisebirmingham.co.uk/about/vision/
User avatar
Barkstar
Member
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 16:32

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Barkstar »

There will doubtless be a lot of facepalming by academics and enthusiasts in decades to come about our often gleeful destruction of a lot of Brutalist architecture. And thus it ever was, the Victorian Society have a whole book of treasures lost in the post war years. In the case of Brutalism frustratingly the building methods have meant to retain often large municipal buildings would be cost prohibitive.

As for Stonehenge, given how far along in the process we are, surely any objection should have to offer a workable solution, not just afforded a possibility to kick it further down the road. I visited as a kid and you could just walk up to them. Carnac is a huge site but, disappointingly, most of it is also fenced off. Avebury is for more engrossing but Castlerigg has it for me, due in part to it's stunning location*

*I suspect Callanish will give it a run for it's money, when I finally get there :D
marconaf
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 14:42

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by marconaf »

I walked over to Stonehenge this week.it’s closed of course due to Covid...

You can get to say 50m away on the footpath but it is “tickets only” to enter the site.

It appears the “site” is basically just a walking circle. My companion was raging at English Heritage’s prescriptive attitude. Judging from overhead conversations of the other dozen or so people walking past, most felt similar.

This road/tunnel “impact on the landscape” thing made me chuckle though - you’ve got powerlines, the hangars of Boscombe Down and a hundred other human buildings all in plain view!

But what stood out more than anything and distracted the eyes, were the yellow jackets of the security staff ardently making sure nobody could get closer than the footpath! Oh and ruining (despite polite requests) some professional looking photographers who were obviously trying to get an atmospheric picture (sunny but cloudy and windy day).

I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality. These things were, by all the info available, part of people’s lives and present in the every day. They should be retained in that manner, not just “park here, pay here, follow the yellow brick rope, take photo here and you must exit via our shop”. Pretty sad really for such an important site to be coveted and greedily held on to like this, shutting it off from the bustle of the world, it’ll be the last time I go there.

To the NW is Woodhenge, a rather uninteresting site also fenced off (but with free access inside). To the N of it are the impressive Durrington Walls, breached for a 60s(?) realignment of the Countess road. Driving through there literally felt like passing through history and made me more interested in the site, noting the original alignment had probably been the Enclosure’s access so one really was following the ancients whilst going about everyday buisness, as they had been.

Reading all the info plaques about the places it was clear that most stuff is speculation. The Cursus (which isnt!) I found the weirdest thing, none of the explanations make sense to me.
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW »

marconaf wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 I walked over to Stonehenge this week.it’s closed of course due to Covid...

You can get to say 50m away on the footpath but it is “tickets only” to enter the site.

It appears the “site” is basically just a walking circle. My companion was raging at English Heritage’s prescriptive attitude. Judging from overhead conversations of the other dozen or so people walking past, most felt similar.

This road/tunnel “impact on the landscape” thing made me chuckle though - you’ve got powerlines, the hangars of Boscombe Down and a hundred other human buildings all in plain view!

But what stood out more than anything and distracted the eyes, were the yellow jackets of the security staff ardently making sure nobody could get closer than the footpath! Oh and ruining (despite polite requests) some professional looking photographers who were obviously trying to get an atmospheric picture (sunny but cloudy and windy day).

I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality. These things were, by all the info available, part of people’s lives and present in the every day. They should be retained in that manner, not just “park here, pay here, follow the yellow brick rope, take photo here and you must exit via our shop”. Pretty sad really for such an important site to be coveted and greedily held on to like this, shutting it off from the bustle of the world, it’ll be the last time I go there.

To the NW is Woodhenge, a rather uninteresting site also fenced off (but with free access inside). To the N of it are the impressive Durrington Walls, breached for a 60s(?) realignment of the Countess road. Driving through there literally felt like passing through history and made me more interested in the site, noting the original alignment had probably been the Enclosure’s access so one really was following the ancients whilst going about everyday buisness, as they had been.

Reading all the info plaques about the places it was clear that most stuff is speculation. The Cursus (which isnt!) I found the weirdest thing, none of the explanations make sense to me.
Avebury is much more open, its owned by English Heritage but run by the NT. You can wander round the stones freely but unless you are a NT member there is a charge for the museum and car park.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/vis ... m-avebury/
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW »

fras wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 23:48
hoagy_ytfc wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 21:25 I'd say the first of those is rather handsome! The other new thing a few doors to the left - not so much.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder !

Actually, talking of modern buildings, I was rather sad the Birmingham Central Library built in the 1970s was demolished. I came to Birmingham to live in 1971 and watched the developments on Paradise Circus where the new library was located. This was designed by the John Madin Design Group in the "brutalist" style. It was originally intended to be clad in Portland Stone, but this was never done, so never looked the part that the architect intended. There was also a very nice School of Music alongside, and underneath was a bus station that never opened !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingha ... al_Library

The plans for Paradise Circus were never completed, and now there are soulless modern buildings there, of no architectural merit whatsoever. See if you agree or not: -

https://www.paradisebirmingham.co.uk/about/vision/

Yes and No - in 1984 I spent a year in the area learning all about these new fangled computers and used the library quite a lot, I am not a great fan of brutalist architecture but this was better than most. The problem even 10 years after it opened was that it no longer fitted the basic needs of the city and the concrete maze around it was full of rough sleepers and druggies. It got worse as the car was no longer king so the Bull Ring shopping centre was demolished along with the inner ring road. It was not aging well with discoloured and stained concrete and was out of place with regard to the Town Hall for example. Sadly I think it had outlived its era.

The library it replaces fitted better of course but was too small.
Image

The new library is better located and is a rather striking design.

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Birmingham
BF2142
Member
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 13:42
Location: Essex

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by BF2142 »

"I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality. These things were, by all the info available, part of people’s lives and present in the every day. They should be retained in that manner, not just “park here, pay here, follow the yellow brick rope, take photo here and you must exit via our shop”. Pretty sad really for such an important site to be coveted and greedily held on to like this, shutting it off from the bustle of the world, it’ll be the last time I go there."

Apparently the stones are "our heritage" (whatever that means?) but you musn't touch them. Gosh no, you might push them over or wear them out.
Micro The Maniac
Member
Posts: 1167
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 13:14
Location: Gone

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Micro The Maniac »

marconaf wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality.
From recollection, they were fenced off after repeated bouts of vandalism and graffiti.

Like in many other ways, the mindless acts of the small minority have impacted the vast majority.
User avatar
Barkstar
Member
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 16:32

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Barkstar »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:59
marconaf wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality.
From recollection, they were fenced off after repeated bouts of vandalism and graffiti.

Like in many other ways, the mindless acts of the small minority have impacted the vast majority.
When the stones first became an attraction visitors took to chipping bits off, and these days someone would tag them for sure. The other problem that goes against open access is the sheer numbers of visitors. We should be grateful they aren't allowed to install a travelator like in the crown jewels room at the Tower of London. But on the whole I really don't like the commercialisation, especially when the cost is 'explained' by adding a lot of unnecessary junk - gift shop, interpretation centre, cafe etc etc. Some places are capable of speaking for themselves.

Like Joni Mitchell sang half a century ago:
'They took all the trees, and put em in a tree museum. And they charged the people a dollar and a half to see them'
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW »

Barkstar wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 13:21
When the stones first became an attraction visitors took to chipping bits off, and these days someone would tag them for sure. The other problem that goes against open access is the sheer numbers of visitors. We should be grateful they aren't allowed to install a travelator like in the crown jewels room at the Tower of London. But on the whole I really don't like the commercialisation, especially when the cost is 'explained' by adding a lot of unnecessary junk - gift shop, interpretation centre, cafe etc etc. Some places are capable of speaking for themselves.

Like Joni Mitchell sang half a century ago:
'They took all the trees, and put em in a tree museum. And they charged the people a dollar and a half to see them'
This is why I prefer Avebury, its in the middle of the village and you can wander through the stones at will.
User avatar
andrewwoods
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 16:23
Location: Poole

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by andrewwoods »

The best time to go is before dawn on the summer solstice.
Free access to the stones, but they do throw you out quite quickly after sunrise.

A magical experience.
Attachments
IMG_2230.JPG
IMG_2230.JPG (154.89 KiB) Viewed 1618 times
marconaf
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 14:42

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by marconaf »

KeithW wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:03
marconaf wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 I walked over to Stonehenge this week.it’s closed of course due to Covid...

You can get to say 50m away on the footpath but it is “tickets only” to enter the site.

It appears the “site” is basically just a walking circle. My companion was raging at English Heritage’s prescriptive attitude. Judging from overhead conversations of the other dozen or so people walking past, most felt similar.

This road/tunnel “impact on the landscape” thing made me chuckle though - you’ve got powerlines, the hangars of Boscombe Down and a hundred other human buildings all in plain view!

But what stood out more than anything and distracted the eyes, were the yellow jackets of the security staff ardently making sure nobody could get closer than the footpath! Oh and ruining (despite polite requests) some professional looking photographers who were obviously trying to get an atmospheric picture (sunny but cloudy and windy day).

I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality. These things were, by all the info available, part of people’s lives and present in the every day. They should be retained in that manner, not just “park here, pay here, follow the yellow brick rope, take photo here and you must exit via our shop”. Pretty sad really for such an important site to be coveted and greedily held on to like this, shutting it off from the bustle of the world, it’ll be the last time I go there.

To the NW is Woodhenge, a rather uninteresting site also fenced off (but with free access inside). To the N of it are the impressive Durrington Walls, breached for a 60s(?) realignment of the Countess road. Driving through there literally felt like passing through history and made me more interested in the site, noting the original alignment had probably been the Enclosure’s access so one really was following the ancients whilst going about everyday buisness, as they had been.

Reading all the info plaques about the places it was clear that most stuff is speculation. The Cursus (which isnt!) I found the weirdest thing, none of the explanations make sense to me.
Avebury is much more open, its owned by English Heritage but run by the NT. You can wander round the stones freely but unless you are a NT member there is a charge for the museum and car park.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/vis ... m-avebury/
I’ll give Avebury a whirl - meaning to get to Marlborough as apparantly some lovely pubs and eateries, albeit post Covid! Bit far to walk from my Wiltshire pad at the mo.

Just a pity what they’ve done to Stonehenge, eviscerated it really. What was odd was approaching it from the N you could easily miss it as I think it’s on lower ground so blends into the horizon. Only from the S/W does it appear the high point. There are several ridges/hills in the area and I was surprised to find it wasnt on the obvious highest.
marconaf
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 14:42

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by marconaf »

Micro The Maniac wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:59
marconaf wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 I dont get this “set stuff aside and fence it off” mentality.
From recollection, they were fenced off after repeated bouts of vandalism and graffiti.

Like in many other ways, the mindless acts of the small minority have impacted the vast majority.
True, same everywhere. More snipers needed...
User avatar
Jim606
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:11

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Jim606 »

Stonehenge is fairly unique in terms of stone circles. Uprights capped with lintels etc. It's image is world famous. It also makes a lot of money for English Heritage who use the surplus cash to help keep other sites going. This is especially true since EH was made into a self-funding charity in 2015 https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/abo ... s-changed/ Yes, EH, the NT etc. are fully aware of it 'cash cow' status and want to milk it for everything it's worth. As mentioned earlier, you can still visit the stones for free if you park at Durrington and walk very the bridleways and permissive route along the old A344. Construction of the road tunnel is only likely to generate more interest as the landscape to the south of the stones becomes more accessible.
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7539
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by jackal »

"Consultants are being asked to investigate the impact of adding emergency refuges or an additional hard shoulder in order to increase tunnel safety over the 3km bored tunnels.

The decision comes as the Government is due to make a decision on the provision of more emergency refuge areas on UK Smart motorways amid concerns about safety."

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/20 ... -shoulder/
A320Driver
Member
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 19:11
Location: Leatherhead

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by A320Driver »

Interesting that the article references a start date of 2023. I thought start was planned for next year?
I can’t help but think that if HE are forced to have a hard shoulder then the cost increase will be too big and the project will get binned.
Formerly ‘guvvaA303’
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7539
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by jackal »

A320Driver wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 09:42 Interesting that the article references a start date of 2023. I thought start was planned for next year?
RIS2 plan says 2022-23 Q2, but also "Start of works dates subject to change following recent delays to statutory planning processes". I don't know if 2023 is officially announced but press have been saying that for a while and it seems very likely.
A320Driver wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 09:42I can’t help but think that if HE are forced to have a hard shoulder then the cost increase will be too big and the project will get binned.
I think they're just covering their bases ahead of the court hearing in June by showing that HS or refuges in the bores are prohibitively expensive (it already has refuges at both portals). There is no rational reason to add HS given the route is 150km long and doesn't have them anywhere else.
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by jervi »

I could understand the reasoning behind having 1 ERA per bore. With the tunnels being 3.2KM long I think it is understandable to have 1, since that will give an ERA every 1.6km, which was the basically standard a few years back for an ALR motorway, typically with 4 lanes of traffic.
Of course now the standard is every 1km, which would require 2 ERAs. However the tunnels here will only ever be 2 lanes per bore, so that's give or take half the capacity of the D4 routes that the 1km spacing is for.
Scratchwood
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 21:44
Location: London

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Scratchwood »

KeithW wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 14:23
Barkstar wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 13:21
When the stones first became an attraction visitors took to chipping bits off, and these days someone would tag them for sure. The other problem that goes against open access is the sheer numbers of visitors. We should be grateful they aren't allowed to install a travelator like in the crown jewels room at the Tower of London. But on the whole I really don't like the commercialisation, especially when the cost is 'explained' by adding a lot of unnecessary junk - gift shop, interpretation centre, cafe etc etc. Some places are capable of speaking for themselves.

Like Joni Mitchell sang half a century ago:
'They took all the trees, and put em in a tree museum. And they charged the people a dollar and a half to see them'
This is why I prefer Avebury, its in the middle of the village and you can wander through the stones at will.
I really liked Avebury, as it's not just a set of stones all by itself, the whole area is full of history and really interesting to walk around. Silbury Hill, West Kennet Long Barrow and the end of the Ridgeway National Trail (which is how I arrived) are all in the area

Plus it has a pub in the middle :D
Post Reply