Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Alderpoint »

fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 13:12 I see that professional protester "Swampy" now in his 50s I think, is protesting at a the HS2 worksite in the Colne Valley somewhere near Denham Green or South Harefield. Presumably he won't be able to be in two places at once !
HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Let it snow.
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by jervi »

Alderpoint wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:00
fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 13:12 I see that professional protester "Swampy" now in his 50s I think, is protesting at a the HS2 worksite in the Colne Valley somewhere near Denham Green or South Harefield. Presumably he won't be able to be in two places at once !
HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Just imagine crying over a tree being cut down. OMEGALUL.
Maybe I'm the odd one out for never having an emotional attachment to a tree
fras
Member
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by fras »

jervi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:08
Alderpoint wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:00
fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 13:12 I see that professional protester "Swampy" now in his 50s I think, is protesting at a the HS2 worksite in the Colne Valley somewhere near Denham Green or South Harefield. Presumably he won't be able to be in two places at once !
HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Just imagine crying over a tree being cut down. OMEGALUL.
Maybe I'm the odd one out for never having an emotional attachment to a tree
What they don't want to tell you is that HS2 arborists have produced cuttings from this tree and planted them near the site away from the line of HS2, so the tree will live on via its offshoots.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35714
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Bryn666 »

jervi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:08
Alderpoint wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:00
fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 13:12 I see that professional protester "Swampy" now in his 50s I think, is protesting at a the HS2 worksite in the Colne Valley somewhere near Denham Green or South Harefield. Presumably he won't be able to be in two places at once !
HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Just imagine crying over a tree being cut down. OMEGALUL.
Maybe I'm the odd one out for never having an emotional attachment to a tree
The emotional attachment to things is what drives all protests, like people who have an emotional attachment to 70 mph speed limits, or an emotional attachment unfit for purpose bridges in London that should just be replaced.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW »

fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 23:05
What they don't want to tell you is that HS2 arborists have produced cuttings from this tree and planted them near the site away from the line of HS2, so the tree will live on via its offshoots.
Two things come to mind, first a pear tree is doing well to reach the age of 50 and with this one having a hollow trunk there is a good chance it would not have survived another winter. I have one in the corner of my garden that was planted when the house was built in the 1970's. It hasnt fruited for years and is now looking rather iffy. Come spring it will have to go before it falls and makes a mess of my fence. Commercial growers usually grub them out and replant after 15 years.

The second thing is that looking at the photo the tree in question seems to seeded rather widely
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11155
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by c2R »

fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 23:05
jervi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:08
Alderpoint wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:00

HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Just imagine crying over a tree being cut down. OMEGALUL.
Maybe I'm the odd one out for never having an emotional attachment to a tree
What they don't want to tell you is that HS2 arborists have produced cuttings from this tree and planted them near the site away from the line of HS2, so the tree will live on via its offshoots.

I can't imagine not having an attachment to the natural world, and think that more should be done to ensure that habitats aren't disturbed during construction projects, where possible. At the end of the day, we should be trying to leave the world a better place than when we found it, so while I agree broadly with construction of new infrastructure, I also believe it should be done responsibly.

And with regard to the cuttings, if they don't want to tell you that (what a ridiculous statement!), they've done a pretty poor job of hiding it given that it's something that has been shouted from the rooftops as being the only way that they've had to save something of the tree.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19178
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by KeithW »

c2R wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:18 I can't imagine not having an attachment to the natural world, and think that more should be done to ensure that habitats aren't disturbed during construction projects, where possible. At the end of the day, we should be trying to leave the world a better place than when we found it, so while I agree broadly with construction of new infrastructure, I also believe it should be done responsibly.

And with regard to the cuttings, if they don't want to tell you that (what a ridiculous statement!), they've done a pretty poor job of hiding it given that it's something that has been shouted from the rooftops as being the only way that they've had to save something of the tree.
Having an attachment to the natural world is all well and good but you need to remember that all living things die. If you are dealing with a healthy tree such as an Oak or Yew that has the potential to live for over a thousand years you have a point but not with naturally short lived trees. Its far better to do what has been done in this case where they have set aside more land than taken and replant it. A tree that has hollowed out, as in this case. is unlikely to survive very long anyway long and if close to a road or pathway should be felled for safety reasons, falling trees and heavy branches do kill people.

There is actually a set of guidelines on tree safety which public authorities and landowners should be familiar with. Failing to follow them can lead to prosecution by the HSE and civil action.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11155
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by c2R »

KeithW wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:32
c2R wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:18 I can't imagine not having an attachment to the natural world, and think that more should be done to ensure that habitats aren't disturbed during construction projects, where possible. At the end of the day, we should be trying to leave the world a better place than when we found it, so while I agree broadly with construction of new infrastructure, I also believe it should be done responsibly.

And with regard to the cuttings, if they don't want to tell you that (what a ridiculous statement!), they've done a pretty poor job of hiding it given that it's something that has been shouted from the rooftops as being the only way that they've had to save something of the tree.
Having an attachment to the natural world is all well and good but you need to remember that all living things die. If you are dealing with a healthy tree such as an Oak or Yew that has the potential to live for over a thousand years you have a point but not with naturally short lived trees. Its far better to do what has been done in this case where they have set aside more land than taken and replant it. A tree that has hollowed out, as in this case. is unlikely to survive very long anyway long and if close to a road or pathway should be felled for safety reasons, falling trees and heavy branches do kill people.

There is actually a set of guidelines on tree safety which public authorities and landowners should be familiar with. Failing to follow them can lead to prosecution by the HSE and civil action.
I didn't say that they were wrong to cut this particular tree down... And propagation and planting multiple other trees nearby probably has a net benefit, as well as replacing something that was in the later years of its life - albeit that the tree and its setting in the land had in my view value as a setting in itself. In the end each situation needs to be considered on its own merits.

My point is really that many people, including myself, appreciate the natural world, and, notwithstanding the cost/benefit analysis in tunneling versus not tunnelling, and reinstatement/replacement amenity being created to replace that which is lost, mocking those that would shed a tear about the loss of an open space and a tree is unlikely to get anyone onside in terms of compromise solutions (and I realise that wasn't your position either!).

All it will realistically is alienate some people who, if appropriate care is taken in the routing and construction of schemes, would not otherwise be anti-the scheme - they will then join the NIMBYs and BANANAs to create a more formidable protest movement - as we saw with, for example, Twyford Down, Newbury, and the Eastway in East London. This in turn will cause problems for future schemes. So would it have been wiser to try and avoid this particular tree, to avoid crating a focal point for protest..... quite possibly.

Although I personally would have sent the route up along the M1/M6 corridor anyway, as the topography is easier, and it's an existing transport corridor, rather than trying to weave it through the middle of the Chilterns with a load of tunnels and bridges...
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
JF2309
Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:43

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by JF2309 »

fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 23:05
jervi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:08
Alderpoint wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:00

HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Just imagine crying over a tree being cut down. OMEGALUL.
Maybe I'm the odd one out for never having an emotional attachment to a tree
What they don't want to tell you is that HS2 arborists have produced cuttings from this tree and planted them near the site away from the line of HS2, so the tree will live on via its offshoots.
Imagine using the term Arborists as some sort of insult. Embarrassing.
Phil
Member
Posts: 2269
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 18:03
Location: Burgess Hill,W Sussex, UK

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Phil »

c2R wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 13:24
Although I personally would have sent the route up along the M1/M6 corridor anyway, as the topography is easier, and it's an existing transport corridor, rather than trying to weave it through the middle of the Chilterns with a load of tunnels and bridges...
Given how the likes of Watford, Luton, Milton Keynes, etc have expand to lie directly on or adjacent to the motorways you mention its not as if you are going to avoid the need for lots of tunnels following the M1 & M6!

It would also prevent any easy connectivity with Heathrow - going via Old Oak means the Thames Valley and indeed East London gain easy access via Crossrail.

If you go back through the mountain of paperwork generated by HS2 during its planning stages you will find that the M1 & M6 corridors were indeed considered in some detail before the current route was chosen.
User avatar
Jim606
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:11

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Jim606 »

I can't imagine not having an attachment to the natural world, and think that more should be done to ensure that habitats aren't disturbed during construction projects, where possible. At the end of the day, we should be trying to leave the world a better place than when we found it, so while I agree broadly with construction of new infrastructure, I also believe it should be done responsibly. And with regard to the cuttings, if they don't want to tell you that (what a ridiculous statement!), they've done a pretty poor job of hiding it given that it's something that has been shouted from the rooftops as being the only way that they've had to save something of the tree.

In a recent issue of the UK Archaeology magazine https://new.archaeologyuk.org/british-a ... chaeology. there is some conjecture re; The Stonehenge Riverside ground penetrating radar / excavation project https://www.digitalresearchservices.ed. ... de-project that the 'landscape around Stonehenge was fairly treeless' when the stones were originally erected.
Simon_GNR
Member
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 19:20
Location: North Nottinghamshire

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Simon_GNR »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 23:32 The emotional attachment to things is what drives all protests, like people who have an emotional attachment to 70 mph speed limits, or an emotional attachment unfit for purpose bridges in London that should just be replaced.
This prompts the thought: "What would happen if John Rennie's London Bridge had survived to the present day and was now found to be in need of replacement because it didn't have the necessary capacity and was starting to fall to bits?" I suspect there would be lengthy, vociferous and emotional protests about getting rid of the venerable Georgian structure, even if there were a proposal to dismantle it and rebuild it in Arizona. The mid-1960's, when the decision to build a new bridge was made, was a very different time in which, for example, the Euston Arch got demolished and St Pancras Station and Hotel very nearly suffered the same fate.
User avatar
hoagy_ytfc
Member
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 00:10

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

JF2309 wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 14:04 Imagine using the term Arborists as some sort of insult. Embarrassing.
I think I'd agree with you if I saw it used as such. What is the example you had in mind?
B4444
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 20:14

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by B4444 »

Arboreal oddity?
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by jervi »

New video by HE for the Stonehenge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIhLj0J-oyw
User avatar
Jim606
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:11

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Jim606 »

Here's the video called Stonehenge voices;

User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 5661
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Vierwielen »

jervi wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:08
Alderpoint wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 18:00
fras wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 13:12 I see that professional protester "Swampy" now in his 50s I think, is protesting at a the HS2 worksite in the Colne Valley somewhere near Denham Green or South Harefield. Presumably he won't be able to be in two places at once !
HS2 is a bit of a headache for protestors: the sheer length of it means it's hard to protest and disrupt operations at all sites. There are a few around here, but there only seem to be occupied by a few protesters - the biggest camp has been protesting about the demise of an old pear tree.
Just imagine crying over a tree being cut down. OMEGALUL.
Maybe I'm the odd one out for never having an emotional attachment to a tree
I know of an apple tree that is very well maintained - at Woolsthorpe Manor. Legend has it that a guy called Isaac N saw an apple falling from the tree which caused him to think.
User avatar
Alderpoint
Member
Posts: 1682
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 14:25
Location: Leamington Spa

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by Alderpoint »

Vierwielen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 18:05 I know of an apple tree that is very well maintained - at Woolsthorpe Manor. Legend has it that a guy called Isaac N saw an apple falling from the tree which caused him to think.
Sounds like the Major Oak in Nottingham Forest. Legend has it that a guy called Robin H hid in it when hiding from the sheriff. Aborialists have examined that tree and decided that if true then Robin H was the longest ever lived human.
Let it snow.
marconaf
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 14:42

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by marconaf »

This upgrade, are they doing the Amesbury junction?

I pass through regularly now and it’s hard to think of a junction more ready to be grade separated!
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7539
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Stonehenge - The bored tunnel option

Post by jackal »

marconaf wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 01:56 This upgrade, are they doing the Amesbury junction?

I pass through regularly now and it’s hard to think of a junction more ready to be grade separated!
Yes, it will be GSJed.
Post Reply