Escape Lanes

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RichardA626
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by RichardA626 »

I've heard of runway diesels before, one trick to stop the vicious circle is to spray a CO2 fire extinguisher into the air inlet.
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Was92now625
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Re: Re Escape Lanes

Post by Was92now625 »

the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 16:26
joshurtree wrote: Sun Aug 24, 2008 13:34 The Snake Pass has a few on the run down to Sheffield.
I've never noticed any. The descent on the eastern side isn't sufficiently long and steep to justify them. The descent into Glossop is, but there's nowhere to put them: there's a precipitous drop adjacent to the road, with a scary number of scratches on the barrier.
Likewise. I've driven this way a fair number of times but not noticed them. Will look out next time I drive that way.
the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 16:26
The only places I can recall them are .... and the A6 between Buxton and Bakewell.

Yes, noticed one there.
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Re: Re:

Post by avtur »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 22:14 .... All diesel engines can run away in certain conditions, when worn they simply burn their own oil instead of diesel - and then when the oil runs out, just go bang! ...
In days gone by the use of "easy start" to help get diesels started, particularly in the cold, was not uncommon. It was brutal stuff and worked because it was so volatile having a much lower autoignition temperature than diesel. The problem being that if overused the piston/cylinder wear on the first few strokes of a cold engine would be significant. This led to comments that engines developed an "appetite" for the stuff, the more it was used, the more engine wear therefore the more it was needed. In the longer term this caused suffcient wear in the cylinders that combustion gases could blow-by and cause a positive pressure in the sump, which in turn caused oil vapour to enter the cylinders where it was burned as fuel and was therefore unregulated by any of the normal throttle control systems. I've seen it happen a couple of times to old tractors used at gliding clubs.

On more modern diesel equipment a turbocharger is pretty much standard fit on everything, the oil seals in the turbo charger are a potential weak spot because failure can result in engine oil bypassing seals and being fed directly into the induction system where again the engine consumes its own lubricating oil as fuel. A quick search of YouTube with the phrase 'diesel engine runaway' may provide some amusement.
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Re: Re:

Post by M4 Cardiff »

avtur wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 02:46
Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 22:14 .... All diesel engines can run away in certain conditions, when worn they simply burn their own oil instead of diesel - and then when the oil runs out, just go bang! ...
In days gone by the use of "easy start" to help get diesels started, particularly in the cold, was not uncommon. It was brutal stuff and worked because it was so volatile having a much lower autoignition temperature than diesel. The problem being that if overused the piston/cylinder wear on the first few strokes of a cold engine would be significant. This led to comments that engines developed an "appetite" for the stuff, the more it was used, the more engine wear therefore the more it was needed. In the longer term this caused suffcient wear in the cylinders that combustion gases could blow-by and cause a positive pressure in the sump, which in turn caused oil vapour to enter the cylinders where it was burned as fuel and was therefore unregulated by any of the normal throttle control systems. I've seen it happen a couple of times to old tractors used at gliding clubs.
That would explain why a land-drilling rig operator I have worked with called that stuff 'heroin for engines' Use it once and it will always need it afterwards.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by RichardA626 »

I've seen Easy Start listed on a bangernomics site as a bodge that doesn't work.

http://bangernomics.tripod.com/bodges.htm

It also mentions runaway diesels:

http://bangernomics.tripod.com/diesel.htm
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Re: Re:

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Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 22:14
OLD GIT wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 22:05
Hagbard wrote: Sun Aug 24, 2008 14:02

The over-revving engine wouldn't last long :shock:

I usually doesn't. I had this ( on the flat fortunately) with an old early model derv Astra which used the ISUSU engine. Engine oil had been overfilled and at throttle lift off ( for a roundabout--nasty :shock: ) it started to over rev. Only cure was to ,get into neutral /switch off engine and stall engine in 5th. But about 30s-1 min in over rev had taken out one or more cam followers. I later found out from RAC blokes that this engine was prone to problems like this if th oil level was too high.
All diesel engines can run away in certain conditions, when worn they simply burn their own oil instead of diesel - and then when the oil runs out, just go bang!
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by punyXpress »

In the mid-60s a friend was given a project to establish why diesel engines, such as in forklifts, were 'running away' at oil refineries.
They established that flammable gases were concentrated enough to be the fuel source that enabled the engine to self-destruct,
despite no additional fuel being used. Will have to ask him what the remedy was.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by Alderpoint »

Is there a summary/comprehensive list of Escape Lanes anywhere? I'm sure I came across one within the last few weeks which I'd not spotted previously, but as those travels include Pembroke, Norwich and Aberdeen it's a pretty wide area to check back through.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by DB617 »

I passed the escape lane at the bottom of the incredibly long and steep Cymmer Hill near Pontypridd earlier today, and noted that it's placed after a busy traffic light controlled crossroads, at the very bottom of the hill. So to reach the escape lane, chances are, you would already have flamed your way through a red light. Meaning, if you make it into said escape lane, you were very flipping lucky about three seconds prior.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by punyXpress »

Would the lights have a facility to stop the crossing traffic and let the runaway through ?
Sure there's the technology somewhere that would allow it.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by rhyds »

punyXpress wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:23 Would the lights have a facility to stop the crossing traffic and let the runaway through ?
Sure there's the technology somewhere that would allow it.
How would you reliably detect a runaway vehicle versus one that's just being driven by an idiot who stops at the last minute?
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by Big L »

rhyds wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:38
punyXpress wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:23 Would the lights have a facility to stop the crossing traffic and let the runaway through ?
Sure there's the technology somewhere that would allow it.
How would you reliably detect a runaway vehicle versus one that's just being driven by an idiot who stops at the last minute?
Does it matter?
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by rhyds »

Big L wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:48
rhyds wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:38
punyXpress wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:23 Would the lights have a facility to stop the crossing traffic and let the runaway through ?
Sure there's the technology somewhere that would allow it.
How would you reliably detect a runaway vehicle versus one that's just being driven by an idiot who stops at the last minute?
Does it matter?
Yes, it does.

If you base the system on the approach speed of a vehicle it will take approximately five earth minutes for some wombat to work that out and approach the traffic lights at stupid MPH on purpose to trigger a green light to their own advantage. Also, quite how quickly any queuing traffic will be able to move out of a runaway truck's path isn't clear either. Thirdly, the whole point of traffic signals is that cars stop at them, if you can't stop, they're not much use!

Is there a streetview link for the escape lane in question?
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Re: Re Escape Lanes

Post by FleetlinePhil »

Was92now625 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 00:13
the cheesecake man wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 16:26
joshurtree wrote: Sun Aug 24, 2008 13:34 The Snake Pass has a few on the run down to Sheffield.
I've never noticed any. The descent on the eastern side isn't sufficiently long and steep to justify them. The descent into Glossop is, but there's nowhere to put them: there's a precipitous drop adjacent to the road, with a scary number of scratches on the barrier.
Likewise. I've driven this way a fair number of times but not noticed them. Will look out next time I drive that way.
I couldn't remember any either, although it is a few years since I've driven it. A quick scoot along on GSV down into Glossop doesn't reveal any, and as stated above, there is nowhere to put them on the nearside of the downhill section.

It was mentioned further upthread about the improved braking capacity of modern large vehicles rendering escape lanes less of a necessity. I can only speak for buses rather than lorries, but the difference between first-generation rear engined buses and their successors was huge. We had a mix of old Daimler Fleetlines and nearly new Leyland Olympians when I started at Todmorden in the late 1980's, and took them up and down some fairly steep gradients. The Fleetlines were semi-automatic, so it was the normal mix of engine-braking against a low gear and the service brakes that would basically be familiar to a car driver in the same circumstances. The Olympians however had a retarder built into the automatic gearbox, which made for a more reassuring descent, although the ones with Voith gearboxes could be horribly noisy in the lower saloon while doing so.

Returning to the Snake Pass, I recall an almighty row breaking out after a young member of office staff lost control of a rear-engined bus (possibly one of GMT's batch of Bristol VR's) when descending into Glossop on the way home from displaying the bus at the Sandtoft trolleybus museum's annual gathering in the mid-1980's. I wasn't on that particular trip, so I can't directly describe what happened, but I gathered it had been a pretty frightening experience for the others on board, at least one of whom was calling for the member concerned to lose his licence or at the very least have further training. I know he didn't lose his licence as I occasionally acted as a conductor for him, and in normal (flat South Manchester) circumstances his driving was fine. Perhaps if he had taken his test in Halifax, as I later did, he would have been better prepared?
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by ardeninian »

rhyds wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 13:42 Is there a streetview link for the escape lane in question?
I think from the description it’s here: https://goo.gl/maps/7D5CirYAHRfHbQ6w5
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by rhyds »

ardeninian wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:31
rhyds wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 13:42 Is there a streetview link for the escape lane in question?
I think from the description it’s here: https://goo.gl/maps/7D5CirYAHRfHbQ6w5
That does seem to rank as the world's most pointless escape lane!
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by FlyingBolt »

rhyds wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:41
ardeninian wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:31
rhyds wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 13:42 Is there a streetview link for the escape lane in question?
I think from the description it’s here: https://goo.gl/maps/7D5CirYAHRfHbQ6w5
That does seem to rank as the world's most pointless escape lane!
I can imagine the situation of a lorry loosing all braking on the hill, hurtling through the high street, past the school, blasting though the junction and finally coming to rest in the sand pit, narrowly avoiding a trip into Morrisons.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by DB617 »

FlyingBolt wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 14:35
rhyds wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:41
ardeninian wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:31

I think from the description it’s here: https://goo.gl/maps/7D5CirYAHRfHbQ6w5
That does seem to rank as the world's most pointless escape lane!
I can imagine the situation of a lorry loosing all braking on the hill, hurtling through the high street, past the school, blasting though the junction and finally coming to rest in the sand pit, narrowly avoiding a trip into Morrisons.
That's the one, and your thoughts echoed mine when I passed there! To be fair, it is quite an extreme hill.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by Bryn666 »

Screams "tHe StAnDaRdS sAy" rather than a sense based appraisal of where to put it.
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Re: Escape Lanes

Post by roadtester »

I was in Wales earlier in the week - Carmarthen to be precise - and on the way back I decided to take the A465 Heads of the Valleys to check on progress. I was interested to see that one of the new sections (sorry can't remember which, I was in a hurry, and can't find anything on line) has an escape lane.

If I'm not mistaken, the old road has/had one or two, but I was a bit surprised to see one on new DC.
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