A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Haydn1971 »

I note, "Mottram" only ? I'm assuming this is a cut down scheme to link the A628/A57 junction to the M67 - it's a start.

The crawler lanes on the A628 have been floating around as an idea since the 80's
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35754
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Bryn666 »

Most of the 'new' projects announced yesterday amount to a rehash of previous announcements.

Sheffield deserves a decent road link from the west that isn't via Leeds but who's got the minerals to propose a full blown D2 expressway?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
si404
Member
Posts: 10885
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 13:25
Location: Amersham

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by si404 »

Bryn666 wrote:Sheffield deserves a decent road link from the west that isn't via Leeds but who's got the minerals to propose a full blown D2 expressway?
The expressway map in the government paper that hints at it with big arrows. But it isn't marked as even potential expressway.
"“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations" Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7544
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by jackal »

Where would the mooted expressway/motorway end on the Sheffield side? There aren't really any high capacity roads west of the M1 or Parkway for it to plug into.
User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Haydn1971 »

J35A ?
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr
User avatar
Johnathan404
Member
Posts: 11478
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 16:54

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Johnathan404 »

Plugging into the M1 south is obvious but if we're talking fantasy, I feel connections to the M18 should be considered too.

Oh wait, smart motorway between the "M67" and the M18.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by c2R »

Haydn1971 wrote:J35A ?
Yes, hopefully it will be amazing, as at the moment, coming off the M1 onto that poxy local access roundabout when signposted off the motorway in the direction of Manchester is, quite frankly, an embarrassment.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9705
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by WHBM »

wrinkly wrote:Well, since it refers to £170M as the total spend on the Manchester-Sheffield route, it won't include an £800M tunnel!
Spend of £170m should just nicely cover the consultant's fees to design an £800m tunnel, so that's where that will likely go; also, none of the previous design work on this route could possibly be included, it all needs to be done yet again from scratch, of course. The fact that this approach leaves no money to actually do any work is, to the consultants' management team, neither here nor there.
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17467
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Truvelo »

It's amazing how much the consultants fees are.

In the 60s they were charging £25k for a tiny section of the Ringways. It's no wonder how little road you get for your money.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
fras
Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by fras »

Quite why we need a load of grotesquely over-paid consultants to see if a tunnel is feasible on the A628 road is beyond me, There are already three disused railway tunnels, one built as recently as 1954, so what feasibility are they investigating ? Clearly it would be costly, but feasible if the money is there, The Italians, French, Germans, and Swiss seem to manage to build road tunnels, so why can't we, for heavens sake ? Oh, I know, they don't use consultants, they just get on with it !
User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Haydn1971 »

Rolls eyes... Ok, which is the best route, what has least risks, which route offers the best economic benefit, where of the heritage and cultural issues, water tables, what's the ground conditions like.

Every country uses consultants to develop a feasibility stage design, that becomes more detailed as the project progresses... Projects failed in the past because details were not investigated. History is littered with crazy plans that never should have got past a wet dream.
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr
User avatar
Roadtripper_Ian
Member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 21:14
Location: Central Buchan

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Roadtripper_Ian »

c2R wrote:
Haydn1971 wrote:J35A ?
Yes, hopefully it will be amazing, as at the moment, coming off the M1 onto that poxy local access roundabout when signposted off the motorway in the direction of Manchester is, quite frankly, an embarrassment.
Think of it as a chicane to slow you down before you hit the 1 mile queue to the A61 roundabout.....
"I don't make the rules, ma'am, I just make them up and write them down"
fras
Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by fras »

Haydn1971 wrote:Rolls eyes... Ok, which is the best route, what has least risks, which route offers the best economic benefit, where of the heritage and cultural issues, water tables, what's the ground conditions like.

Every country uses consultants to develop a feasibility stage design, that becomes more detailed as the project progresses... Projects failed in the past because details were not investigated. History is littered with crazy plans that never should have got past a wet dream.
OK, I accept that sort of work has to be done, but surely if the railway tunnels got built, even the 1954 one, they must, ergo, have been feasible ! Is a spend of £170 million on consultants reasonable ? I think not, they are being paid like City bankers at that money. I can just see the offices of the usual suspects adding 20-30 % onto their fees with the Government in a rat-trap needing to catch up with the rest of Europe.
User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Haydn1971 »

Where the hell have you got £170M for design fees ?
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr
RickyB_uk
Member
Posts: 3602
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 15:33

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by RickyB_uk »

fras wrote:OK, I accept that sort of work has to be done, but surely if the railway tunnels got built, even the 1954 one, they must, ergo, have been feasible ! Is a spend of £170 million on consultants reasonable ? I think not, they are being paid like City bankers at that money. I can just see the offices of the usual suspects adding 20-30 % onto their fees with the Government in a rat-trap needing to catch up with the rest of Europe.
I think a feasibility study isn't going to be identifying whether a tunnel is physically possible at any cost. It almost certainly is.

I think it's far more likely to try and identify if a tunnel can be built for a reasonable cost and try to identify a number of possible routes. The environmental impact is going to be important with the route having to cross the Peak District National Park. And the geology is going to be a key consideration as to tunnel routes which are feasible.

And remember it's not just a tunnel, there's also several km of connecting road to think about.

The Swallows Wood route is politically difficult. If you want to head towards the current Woodhead tunnels then original M67 route between Hadfield and Hollingworth is now filled with industrial units. There's a possible route north of Hadfield & Hollingworth and south of Tintwistle & the reservoirs - but the elevation changes might be tricky etc. And if you want to avoid surface running through the Peak District entirely, you need at least a 14km tunnel.

There is a lot which needs to be decided. And whether a Government will be prepared to fund it?
fras
Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by fras »

Funny, isn't it, that the Italians seem to manage to build twn bore autostrada tunnels without a lot of fuss and "in depth studies" and all that consultancy bullsh*t Take a look at this lot around Genova. And, yes, I have driven along all of these in both directions. All the tunnels are through solid rock by the way.

http://www.bing.com/maps/#Y3A9NTMuMTAwN ... UyMEl0YWx5

The A26 has three lane, twin bore tunnels, by the way.
fras
Member
Posts: 3590
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 18:34

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by fras »

RickyB_uk wrote:
fras wrote:OK, I accept that sort of work has to be done, but surely if the railway tunnels got built, even the 1954 one, they must, ergo, have been feasible ! Is a spend of £170 million on consultants reasonable ? I think not, they are being paid like City bankers at that money. I can just see the offices of the usual suspects adding 20-30 % onto their fees with the Government in a rat-trap needing to catch up with the rest of Europe.
I think a feasibility study isn't going to be identifying whether a tunnel is physically possible at any cost. It almost certainly is.

I think it's far more likely to try and identify if a tunnel can be built for a reasonable cost and try to identify a number of possible routes. The environmental impact is going to be important with the route having to cross the Peak District National Park. And the geology is going to be a key consideration as to tunnel routes which are feasible.

And remember it's not just a tunnel, there's also several km of connecting road to think about.

The Swallows Wood route is politically difficult. If you want to head towards the current Woodhead tunnels then original M67 route between Hadfield and Hollingworth is now filled with industrial units. There's a possible route north of Hadfield & Hollingworth and south of Tintwistle & the reservoirs - but the elevation changes might be tricky etc. And if you want to avoid surface running through the Peak District entirely, you need at least a 14km tunnel.

There is a lot which needs to be decided. And whether a Government will be prepared to fund it?
The Swallows Wood route is politically difficult. If you want to head towards the current Woodhead tunnels then original M67 route between Hadfield and Hollingworth is now filled with industrial units. There's a possible route north of Hadfield & Hollingworth and south of Tintwistle & the reservoirs - but the elevation changes might be tricky etc. And if you want to avoid surface running through the Peak District entirely, you need at least a 14km tunnel.

There is a lot which needs to be decided. And whether a Government will be prepared to fund it?
Something like the Frejus tunnel in France near Mont Cenis, (13km) then ? I have also been through this one. It's restricted to 40 mph (approx.), but saves the climb over the Mont Cenis Pass if you're in a hurry, (as I was). I admit it has a fairly heavy toll, but I assume most users find it worth it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9jus_Road_Tunnel

Construction costs seem a bargain in British terms.
User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Haydn1971 »

fras wrote:Funny, isn't it, that the Italians seem to manage to build twn bore autostrada tunnels without a lot of fuss and "in depth studies" and all that consultancy bullsh*t Take a look at this lot around Genova. And, yes, I have driven along all of these in both directions. All the tunnels are through solid rock by the way.
Do you have evidence that there was no consultants involved in the construction of autostrada tunnels ? If so, who designed the tunnels ?
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr
User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by Haydn1971 »

fras wrote:Construction costs seem a bargain in British terms.
€100M per mile 10 years ago ? Not that much different
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr
SteveA30
Member
Posts: 6015
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset

Re: A57/A628 Mottram Tintwistle bypass

Post by SteveA30 »

Are consultants and designers the same person(s)? Can you have designers designing without consultants?
Roads and holidays in the west, before motorways.
http://trektothewest.shutterfly.com
http://holidayroads.webs.com/
Post Reply