Dark green primary signs

[MrEd]

There aren't many left these days but older primary signs were in a much darker shade of green than today. Is it to do with the materials used or was there a decision made to lighten the colour to make them easier to read for drivers? I guesstimate that it changed in the late 70's/early 80's judging by some of the examples I've seen.

[Chris5156]

I think you're right - there does seem to be a distinction between very old ones, which are in a sort of deep forest green, and the more modern type that are everywhere.

I don't have a definitive answer but here's a couple of thoughts.

- When primary route signs were first introduced in 1963, only the white and yellow text would have been reflectorised, with the green just a matte background. Possibly the darker shade of green was better suited to being unobtrusive at night, and when the technology existed for the whole sign to be reflectorised as now, a lighter shade had to be chosen to make it show up. I can't imagine dark colours look good when reflectorised.

- It's very difficult to tell just how much darker they were - given that all examples like this must be 30-40 years old now, it's possible that the material they are made of has become darker over time. It might be the case that they were much closer to the current green colour at one time - though I'm fairly sure that the original green was at least a little darker than now.

[Bryn666]

It seems to depend on the sign manufacturer. The original Worboys green is extremely dark in comparison with some of the recent signs from 10 years ago.

However, a lot of brand new signs are now returning to the darker shade of green, particularly those signs produced in microprismatic 3M sheeting.

[J N Winkler]

As far as I am aware, the colorimetric specification has not changed since 1965. I think the older signs appear darker simply because the backgrounds are not reflectorized--this is also true of motorway signs from the same period. There is also a visual distinction between reflectorized and non-reflectorized sign backgrounds in the US, where the colorimetric specification has likewise not changed since the early 1970's except in California.

Regarding newer signs with retroreflective sheeting, I have sometimes wondered if fabricators have substituted (US) Federal green for Worboys green and hoped not to be caught out. Federal green is widely available as a sheeting, while Worboys green is a specialty color for the British market.

[WHBM]

Purely from recollection, I would say that the green background on older signs are ageing darker compared to when they were first erected in the 1960s. The yellow lettering on old signs also turns golden over the years.

One feature not continued is that the older style, with only reflectorised lettering, always looked to have a black background at night.

Motorway signs have gone the other way. The blue nowadays is definitely darker than it used to be. Presumably this is to handle the colour fading over time, which blue is particularly prone to, despite the best attempts of the paint pigment manufacturers.

[Conekicker]

Regarding newer signs with retroreflective sheeting, I have sometimes wondered if fabricators have substituted (US) Federal green for Worboys green and hoped not to be caught out. Federal green is widely available as a sheeting, while Worboys green is a specialty color for the British market.

Even if this is/was happening, (and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it hasn't happened somewhere),who would check what was being manufactured? There are precious few in the industry who could spot the difference (skills shortage) and even fewer who would get the backing from their management (a range of professional/political/financial implications) to chase this to a conclusion.

[Jimbo]

Regarding newer signs with retroreflective sheeting, I have sometimes wondered if fabricators have substituted (US) Federal green for Worboys green and hoped not to be caught out. Federal green is widely available as a sheeting, while Worboys green is a specialty color for the British market.

Even if this is/was happening, (and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it hasn't happened somewhere),who would check what was being manufactured? There are precious few in the industry who could spot the difference (skills shortage) and even fewer who would get the backing from their management (a range of professional/political/financial implications) to chase this to a conclusion.

and even if someone did spend the time to find this out, does it really matter ? Surely it would be better for the taxpayer to have cheaper signs using off-the-shelf colours rather than custom colours ?

Jim.

[M4Mark]

I seem to remember us discussing this subject recently in a thread on history of advance direction signs.

According to Chapter 1 Traffic Signs Manual 1982 the colours on signs are:
Green primary route signs = British Standard 381C No 226 (Middle Brunswick Green)
Green (Rendezvous Point, signals ahead etc.) = British Standard 381C No 225 (Light Brunswick Green)
I would guess that the move to modern materials and the effects of ageing on older signs has caused us to notice the green look lighter than the older ones.

The only way to know for sure would be to get the sign material manufacturers to send a copy of independent tests of their sign colours against BS381C to see if they are correct.

[J N Winkler]

And even if someone did spend the time to find this out, does it really matter ? Surely it would be better for the taxpayer to have cheaper signs using off-the-shelf colours rather than custom colours?

I think there is still value in having a darker green background, even if this is not precisely the same shade of green as is used for all guide signs in a much larger overseas country which has 3 million miles of public road, about 55,000 of which are built to full freeway standard. Worboys green contrasts better with the yellow used for route numbers. I don't see Federal green working nearly as well unless Britain returned to a two-color system for primary routes, similar to what was tried shortly before the Worboys committee was appointed--destination legend in Transport Medium, road numbers in Motorway Permanent, but with green instead of blue background.

[IrlRon]

I know over here anyway, national road signs erected since 1989 have been of a definitely lighter shade of green than those from the 1977-89 period, which were the same shade of green as the UK originally used. Don't know what the rationale for this change was though, other than it coming with the other changes to road signs in 1989.

[jcpren]

It's very difficult to tell just how much darker they were - given that all examples like this must be 30-40 years old now, it's possible that the material they are made of has become darker over time. It might be the case that they were much closer to the current green colour at one time

I have a feeling that this is not the case. Colours tend to bleach in sunlight, becoming paler rather than darker. I'm sure I've seen examples of old primary route signs where peeled-off characters revealed an original shade of green that was even darker than the surrounding area.

[PeterA5145]

My memory is definitely that the older primary route signs were a distinctly darker shade of green, and also that the older motorway signs had a more turquoise hue than the more recent ones.

[northernlight]

I agree that the signs erected in the 70s and 80s were certainly of a darker hue, and that's not just because of the relective nature of the new signs.
In Scotland there are very few of these signs left. This is because all primary routes are trunk routes, of which there is a limited number, and almost all have been replaced. The old signs now look really antiquated. There are a lot more in England.
I list the following places I've seen them, and would be interested if others have seen them elsewhere.
A9 in various places, including just after the A86 turn off at Kingussie and I think near Moy, Inverness-shire.
A86 in Newtonmore where the A86 turns off the old A9.
A82 route confirmation sign in Inverness
Almost all the signs on the A82, A84 and A85 are new, some replaced very recently to be bilingual.
The old signs seem to age better as the reflective signs look great for a few years, then become jaded and blotchy and rather tatty.

[jcpren]

The old signs now look really antiquated. There are a lot more in England.
I list the following places I've seen them, and would be interested if others have seen them elsewhere.

Believe it or not, the part of the B768 Dumbreck Road that is used by traffic between M77 J1 and M8 J23 is signed in green, and appears as primary on Multimap. It sports some of the old dark green signs. One of them can be seen on Google Streetview, here.

I've just realised that that part of Dumbreck Road is a bit of an oddity, being a primary B-road. I think I'll start a new thread about that...

[MDTyKe]

I've noticed too in ROI they seem to have a lighter shade of green that NI/GB

[crazyknightsfan]

What were the older signs made from?

In Australia we used polyurethane paint before the 3m stuff came along - it would not surprise me if this was copied from British practice. The painted signs only had a design life of 10 years, so you can imagine why the relics that exist today look weathered and faded.

[Truvelo]

Believe it or not, the part of the B768 Dumbreck Road that is used by traffic between M77 J1 and M8 J23 is signed in green, and appears as primary on Multimap. It sports some of the old dark green signs. One of them can be seen on Google Streetview, here.

The bottom right panel appears to have been replaced which highlights the difference between the original and current green well.

A few comments earlier in this thread compared our green to that used in the US. The two are nothing similar. American green is more turquoise with a touch of blue.

[jcpren]

the older motorway signs had a more turquoise hue than the more recent ones.

That's true. The backlit M8 gantries date from that period, and many of the panels are still old enough to be coloured as you describe. On one gantry, only the panels for the sliproad have been updated, and the difference in colour is immediately obvious when you see the two of them side by side.

[Bryn666]

It is worth remembering that the darker unreflective paint was supposed to be illuminated (at least in urban areas).

This usually meant either the huge outreach brackets with a single spotlight, or in the photo below, several strip lights mounted above the sign face.

[Chris Bertram]

Nice pre-Worboys sign in the background