N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

The correct measure of equality is not how much money is spent - it's equality of ability to get about your business.

That means not just whether you can personally get from A to B, but also whether goods can get to you when they are needed at a reasonable price. Gumming up Belfast means that goods get delayed and transportation prices go up.

Dualling a road because of "respect" or "equality" is solving the wrong question, and in the case of the choice between the Windyhill Road, the Mountain Road and the coast road, a bit of a vanity project. The dual carriageway north of Ballymena stops at the Drones Road because of how much traffic turns off for Ballycastle - the road to Ballymoney and beyond is significantly quieter. The A6 isn't being dualled between Castledawson and Dungiven because it's significantly quieter than the rest of the road.

While I support the implementation of the A5 and A6 in their current form and not the AA5A nonsense (waste of money) and with considerable reservations about dumping a dual carriageway onto the local road network at Drumahoe rather than closer to the city, I still maintain that YSI, even though it's in the unfashionable east, will have a far greater impact on everyone's ability to get about their business. Much more bang for your buck.
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Euan »

c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18
Frostyj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:09
I would put the york Street interchange behind those roads, and the Road from Derry to Dungiven, as a matter of respect and principal. Equality is something that must be put into practice, and a constant improvement of Belfast infrastructure and neglect of elsewhere is discriminatory and unacceptable in 2018.
I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

And that bounces back to:
  • What is inadequate and unsafe about the status quo?
  • How much of a problem is lack of overtaking lanes?
  • Are the roads above their design capacity?
  • How many collisions relate to bad design?
  • How many collisions relate to bad drivers?
This is all about impact. I cannot help feeling that dualling routes operating so far under capacity is presenting a solution in need of a problem.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still going to say that the job should be done right, rather than wasting time and money doing something "cheap" now that will be inadequate in ten years and will have to be undone and rebuilt properly later - but "there are no railways" and "another area got billions thrown at it" without assessing against equality of ability to get about one's business isn't going to pass muster.

It's a bit like saying that the road across Mull should be widened from S1 to S2+1 because a far busier road near Glasgow has had improvements and it's time the regions saw some of it.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18
Frostyj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:09
I would put the york Street interchange behind those roads, and the Road from Derry to Dungiven, as a matter of respect and principal. Equality is something that must be put into practice, and a constant improvement of Belfast infrastructure and neglect of elsewhere is discriminatory and unacceptable in 2018.
I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
As a citizen of Northern Ireland my concern is improving our road network. I'm not concerned and won't fight for ports in the Republic of Ireland, hundreds of miles away.

I will fight for and aim for improvement of the road network in the Northern and North Western part of NI roads that must be brought up to 21st century standards. It's really a minimum of expectations.
Last edited by Frostyj on Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:49, edited 1 time in total.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44
c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18
Frostyj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:09
I would put the york Street interchange behind those roads, and the Road from Derry to Dungiven, as a matter of respect and principal. Equality is something that must be put into practice, and a constant improvement of Belfast infrastructure and neglect of elsewhere is discriminatory and unacceptable in 2018.
I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
The region isn't sparsely populated. The city of Derry has 109,000 people and the wider area, 130,000. Then you've got the Triangle area of Coleraine, Portrush and Portsewart.

All of these areas require further investment and improvement of roads up to modern day standards.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

AndyB wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 08:17 The correct measure of equality is not how much money is spent - it's equality of ability to get about your business.

That means not just whether you can personally get from A to B, but also whether goods can get to you when they are needed at a reasonable price. Gumming up Belfast means that goods get delayed and transportation prices go up.

Dualling a road because of "respect" or "equality" is solving the wrong question, and in the case of the choice between the Windyhill Road, the Mountain Road and the coast road, a bit of a vanity project. The dual carriageway north of Ballymena stops at the Drones Road because of how much traffic turns off for Ballycastle - the road to Ballymoney and beyond is significantly quieter. The A6 isn't being dualled between Castledawson and Dungiven because it's significantly quieter than the rest of the road.

While I support the implementation of the A5 and A6 in their current form and not the AA5A nonsense (waste of money) and with considerable reservations about dumping a dual carriageway onto the local road network at Drumahoe rather than closer to the city, I still maintain that YSI, even though it's in the unfashionable east, will have a far greater impact on everyone's ability to get about their business. Much more bang for your buck.
So continue to discriminate against western areas? Great now we know where you stand!

Quite clearly you have never travelled from Limavady to Derry on a Sunday, or a summer day and seen the queues and queues of cars for miles upon miles outside Ballykelly.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35754
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Bryn666 »

Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:49
Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44
c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18

I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
The region isn't sparsely populated. The city of Derry has 109,000 people and the wider area, 130,000. Then you've got the Triangle area of Coleraine, Portrush and Portsewart.

All of these areas require further investment and improvement of roads up to modern day standards.
Don't feel like you're unique, Norwich still has not got a completed dual carriageway connection to anywhere and is much bigger than any of the north-western towns in NI.

The A5 requires improvements, it's rubbish for what it does, but equally York Street Interchange is probably one of the worst bottlenecks in the whole of Ireland. It's not about "east vs west".
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:51
AndyB wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 08:17 The correct measure of equality is not how much money is spent - it's equality of ability to get about your business.

That means not just whether you can personally get from A to B, but also whether goods can get to you when they are needed at a reasonable price. Gumming up Belfast means that goods get delayed and transportation prices go up.

Dualling a road because of "respect" or "equality" is solving the wrong question, and in the case of the choice between the Windyhill Road, the Mountain Road and the coast road, a bit of a vanity project. The dual carriageway north of Ballymena stops at the Drones Road because of how much traffic turns off for Ballycastle - the road to Ballymoney and beyond is significantly quieter. The A6 isn't being dualled between Castledawson and Dungiven because it's significantly quieter than the rest of the road.

While I support the implementation of the A5 and A6 in their current form and not the AA5A nonsense (waste of money) and with considerable reservations about dumping a dual carriageway onto the local road network at Drumahoe rather than closer to the city, I still maintain that YSI, even though it's in the unfashionable east, will have a far greater impact on everyone's ability to get about their business. Much more bang for your buck.
So continue to discriminate against western areas? Great now we know where you stand!

Quite clearly you have never travelled from Limavady to Derry on a Sunday, or a summer day and seen the queues and queues of cars for miles upon miles outside Ballykelly.
I've travelled enough to have seen the queues and queues of cars for miles upon miles in Belfast every weekday. I'm quite aware of the constraints of Greysteel and Ballykelly.

Are you seriously telling me that the congestion/capacity problems in the west are more serious than the congestion/capacity problems in the east? They are nowhere near the same scale as the east.

This isn't discrimination against western areas. This is clear-headed, albeit highly unpopular thinking: the west certainly needs investment, but the last thing it needs is shiny new dual carriageways that will be far below capacity when other investments in the same area would reap far more benefits - more passing loops and faster running times on the railway, better overtaking opportunities. You could justify a dual carriageway Derry-Limavady, could you justify it further? (check the data at The Detail)

This continues to be bang for your buck. There's no point saying that it's not fair that another town is getting this, that and the other, if the other town is grinding to a halt due to underinvestment and unmanaged demand, but your village only has to deal with a few tractors.
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Euan »

Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:49
Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44
c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18

I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
The region isn't sparsely populated. The city of Derry has 109,000 people and the wider area, 130,000. Then you've got the Triangle area of Coleraine, Portrush and Portsewart.

All of these areas require further investment and improvement of roads up to modern day standards.
The area around Coleraine and along much of the north coast was not really where I was thinking of. Away from the coast, large towns such as Enniskillen and Omagh tend to come few and far between when compared with the surroundings of Belfast Lough and along the M1. So, inevitably there will be higher demand for connecting Belfast to Lisburn, Bangor, Newtownabbey etc than for providing the same level of connection between places like Omagh and Strabane.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by c2R »

Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:47
As a citizen of Northern Ireland my concern is improving our road network. I'm not concerned and won't fight for ports in the Republic of Ireland, hundreds of miles away.

I will fight for and aim for improvement of the road network in the Northern and North Western part of NI roads that must be brought up to 21st century standards. It's really a minimum of expectations.

I'd be interested to know how you think the things you eat and use gets to you? Ports in the republic may be "hundreds of miles away" from you, but HGVs can, unsurprisingly, travel such distances with ease. You might be interested to know that a large amount of freight arrives at those ports.... did you know that 34,651,000 tonnes of freight passed through Rosslare last year, with a further 175,848,000 tonnes through Dublin. This compares with 111,379,000 through Belfast.

I'm not saying that Derry shouldn't be connected to Belfast by dual carriageway - actually, I agree it should. But in terms of supporting growth, not just in the region but in the wider economies of both the UK and Republic of Ireland, strategic decisions on spending need to be taken; and in my view, congestion in Belfast has a worse impact on growth and the economy than anywhere else on the island.

You might not care about any of this; however, a similarly selfish example would be to look at the Fenland area of England plus the surrounding towns of Ely, Wisbech, Kings Lynn, Spalding, and Boston, the population there is about the same as the greater Derry area and the road infrastructure is just as poor, if not poorer. If that region of England had, say, a spare £10bn a year then that would go some way towards improving the infrastructure to benefit the people that live there. By sheer coincidence, £10bn is about the estimated transfer of funding from England to NI to cover the gap in spending and tax revenue. However, the point of wealth distribution is to try and bring about a more equal society....
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Euan »

Those freight figures would definitely suggest that the A5 should be improved before any further improvements are made along the A6, especially given that as far as Randalstown the route is covered by the M2 and M22 motorways. Shipping companies may tend to lean towards Dublin or Rosslaire for importing goods as the road connections are less congested than in Belfast, even if they are transporting goods primarily destined for NI markets. Also remember that the A5 heads south and continues towards Dublin as the N2 which itself is yet to see significant improvements, but I'm sure that is a discussion for another day. Although, dualling the A5 is a step in the right direction for eventually upgrading the entire Dublin - Derry route.
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

And the A6 is busier.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:56
Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:49
Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44

Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
The region isn't sparsely populated. The city of Derry has 109,000 people and the wider area, 130,000. Then you've got the Triangle area of Coleraine, Portrush and Portsewart.

All of these areas require further investment and improvement of roads up to modern day standards.
Don't feel like you're unique, Norwich still has not got a completed dual carriageway connection to anywhere and is much bigger than any of the north-western towns in NI.

The A5 requires improvements, it's rubbish for what it does, but equally York Street Interchange is probably one of the worst bottlenecks in the whole of Ireland. It's not about "east vs west".
I live in Norwich, it's an isolated 'city'. It's in England, not NI. English authorities have more willing to spend money on road and rail than in NI.

GA will be bringing in a new train fleet later this year.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

AndyB wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 18:43
Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:51
AndyB wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 08:17 The correct measure of equality is not how much money is spent - it's equality of ability to get about your business.

That means not just whether you can personally get from A to B, but also whether goods can get to you when they are needed at a reasonable price. Gumming up Belfast means that goods get delayed and transportation prices go up.

Dualling a road because of "respect" or "equality" is solving the wrong question, and in the case of the choice between the Windyhill Road, the Mountain Road and the coast road, a bit of a vanity project. The dual carriageway north of Ballymena stops at the Drones Road because of how much traffic turns off for Ballycastle - the road to Ballymoney and beyond is significantly quieter. The A6 isn't being dualled between Castledawson and Dungiven because it's significantly quieter than the rest of the road.

While I support the implementation of the A5 and A6 in their current form and not the AA5A nonsense (waste of money) and with considerable reservations about dumping a dual carriageway onto the local road network at Drumahoe rather than closer to the city, I still maintain that YSI, even though it's in the unfashionable east, will have a far greater impact on everyone's ability to get about their business. Much more bang for your buck.
So continue to discriminate against western areas? Great now we know where you stand!

Quite clearly you have never travelled from Limavady to Derry on a Sunday, or a summer day and seen the queues and queues of cars for miles upon miles outside Ballykelly.
I've travelled enough to have seen the queues and queues of cars for miles upon miles in Belfast every weekday. I'm quite aware of the constraints of Greysteel and Ballykelly.

Are you seriously telling me that the congestion/capacity problems in the west are more serious than the congestion/capacity problems in the east? They are nowhere near the same scale as the east.

This isn't discrimination against western areas. This is clear-headed, albeit highly unpopular thinking: the west certainly needs investment, but the last thing it needs is shiny new dual carriageways that will be far below capacity when other investments in the same area would reap far more benefits - more passing loops and faster running times on the railway, better overtaking opportunities. You could justify a dual carriageway Derry-Limavady, could you justify it further? (check the data at The Detail)

This continues to be bang for your buck. There's no point saying that it's not fair that another town is getting this, that and the other, if the other town is grinding to a halt due to underinvestment and unmanaged demand, but your village only has to deal with a few tractors.
Well, I wouldn't care too much if the Dual Carriageway only went to Limavady, as that is where the bottlenecks are and that is the section that I use. There was talk of a third lane from Limavady to Coleraine but that hasn't materialised.

All of these things are great, they won't happen, not due to lack of money but due to lack of priority.

As for railways, NI has a small network, you could Double Track the whole route on one go, it'd only be 160 miles. Here in England there are many, many areas of Double Track and even electrification where the population is rural. Just look at the Braintree Branch line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braintree_branch_line

NI Railways falls heavily behind GB's raillines. Just across the sea, Ayr has an electrified line and Double Track, the Ayrshire coast is not as populated as county Antrim and Down.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 19:01
Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:49
Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44

Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
The region isn't sparsely populated. The city of Derry has 109,000 people and the wider area, 130,000. Then you've got the Triangle area of Coleraine, Portrush and Portsewart.

All of these areas require further investment and improvement of roads up to modern day standards.
The area around Coleraine and along much of the north coast was not really where I was thinking of. Away from the coast, large towns such as Enniskillen and Omagh tend to come few and far between when compared with the surroundings of Belfast Lough and along the M1. So, inevitably there will be higher demand for connecting Belfast to Lisburn, Bangor, Newtownabbey etc than for providing the same level of connection between places like Omagh and Strabane.
Well, I live in that area and frequently travel to Derry and Coleraine/Portrush area when I am at home. When I was thinking of road upgrades, that was the area I was thinking of.

The Northern coastal area isn't massively densely populated, but it's also not in the same category as the likes of Fermanagh. Population wise and Population density wise it would be more akin to the area South of Lough Neagh which has a motorway running through it.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

c2R wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:18
Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:47
As a citizen of Northern Ireland my concern is improving our road network. I'm not concerned and won't fight for ports in the Republic of Ireland, hundreds of miles away.

I will fight for and aim for improvement of the road network in the Northern and North Western part of NI roads that must be brought up to 21st century standards. It's really a minimum of expectations.

I'd be interested to know how you think the things you eat and use gets to you? Ports in the republic may be "hundreds of miles away" from you, but HGVs can, unsurprisingly, travel such distances with ease. You might be interested to know that a large amount of freight arrives at those ports.... did you know that 34,651,000 tonnes of freight passed through Rosslare last year, with a further 175,848,000 tonnes through Dublin. This compares with 111,379,000 through Belfast.

I'm not saying that Derry shouldn't be connected to Belfast by dual carriageway - actually, I agree it should. But in terms of supporting growth, not just in the region but in the wider economies of both the UK and Republic of Ireland, strategic decisions on spending need to be taken; and in my view, congestion in Belfast has a worse impact on growth and the economy than anywhere else on the island.

You might not care about any of this; however, a similarly selfish example would be to look at the Fenland area of England plus the surrounding towns of Ely, Wisbech, Kings Lynn, Spalding, and Boston, the population there is about the same as the greater Derry area and the road infrastructure is just as poor, if not poorer. If that region of England had, say, a spare £10bn a year then that would go some way towards improving the infrastructure to benefit the people that live there. By sheer coincidence, £10bn is about the estimated transfer of funding from England to NI to cover the gap in spending and tax revenue. However, the point of wealth distribution is to try and bring about a more equal society....
Well, I was on an fairly new 8 car electric train running from Ely to London and back, on Saturday. Suffice to say, the Train Network in the Fens regions is heavily invested and has a heavy, high standard infrastructure that even major areas of Northern England don't have. So the idea of under investment of rail there, doesn't fall for me.

Ely also has a new road being built outside it.

And the suggestion of taking the block grant from NI and plomping it in Ely and Kings Lynn is a highly disgusting and offensive one. Particularly given the Geographical position of NI and ELY, the differences that infers with job opportunities and the turmoil that NI went through.

Very offensive.
Last edited by Frostyj on Tue Nov 27, 2018 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:56 Those freight figures would definitely suggest that the A5 should be improved before any further improvements are made along the A6, especially given that as far as Randalstown the route is covered by the M2 and M22 motorways. Shipping companies may tend to lean towards Dublin or Rosslaire for importing goods as the road connections are less congested than in Belfast, even if they are transporting goods primarily destined for NI markets. Also remember that the A5 heads south and continues towards Dublin as the N2 which itself is yet to see significant improvements, but I'm sure that is a discussion for another day. Although, dualling the A5 is a step in the right direction for eventually upgrading the entire Dublin - Derry route.
The Northern Ireland executive will fund roads in our country, so the A6 will come before the A5. Which would make sense as it is far shorter and more frequently used.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26208
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Owain »

Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44
c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18
Frostyj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:09
I would put the york Street interchange behind those roads, and the Road from Derry to Dungiven, as a matter of respect and principal. Equality is something that must be put into practice, and a constant improvement of Belfast infrastructure and neglect of elsewhere is discriminatory and unacceptable in 2018.
I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
It seems like an age now (two-and-a-half years) since I lived in Derry!

In my view the reason why the A5 needs dualling before either the A6, the A37 Coleraine-Limavady Road, or the York Street Interchange is not so much because it is so congested, but because it is currently of such a truly diabolical standard. IMV, it's the worst Ax or Axx road in the entire UK ... and I've driven most of them in their entirety!

The A6 and A37 both have ample overtaking opportunities, but the A5 has very few. The A6 and A37 each pass through very few settlements with 30 or 40 limits, whereas the A5 passes through one after the other between Derry and Strabane. The A5 is vastly inferior to either the A6 or the A37, neither of which did I ever find unpleasant to drive (even if I often opted for a bit of 'fun' on the Murder Hole B201 instead of sticking to the main road).
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by c2R »

Frostyj wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:47
I'm not concerned and won't fight for ports in the Republic of Ireland, hundreds of miles away.
Frostyj wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 20:47
And the suggestion of taking the block grant from NI and plomping it in Ely and Kings Lynn is a highly disgusting and offensive one. Particularly given the Geographical position of NI and ELY, the differences that infers with job opportunities and the turmoil that NI went through.

Very offensive.

Interesting.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
Frostyj
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:31

Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

No - it's not interesting. England and NI are funded by the same government.
Post Reply