N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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bothar
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by bothar »

The draft deal issued tonight for the restoration of the NI Executive contains the line
The (Irish) Government will deliver on its funding commitments to those projects (A5 and Ulster canal), including a total of £75 million up to 2022 for the A5.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Berk »

It’s interesting to see how the ROI’s contribution has remained constant over the years.

It would seem as if they are effectively paying for the background/legal/design costs, and NI a for the construction - even if it’s not formally split that way.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

Still waiting on the Eglinton to Limavady road to be Dualed!
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by A42_Sparks »

An 'interim report' has put the A5 dualling on hold again and it may not even happen now:

'It found that the scheme did not have an up-to-date assessment of the flood risk along parts of the route and what was being relied on was "not fit for purpose" and predated significant flooding in the area in recent years... alternatives involving town bypasses and upgrades of the existing road should be properly assessed.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56417164
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Jonathan24 »

A42_Sparks wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 14:09 An 'interim report' has put the A5 dualling on hold again and it may not even happen now:

'It found that the scheme did not have an up-to-date assessment of the flood risk along parts of the route and what was being relied on was "not fit for purpose" and predated significant flooding in the area in recent years... alternatives involving town bypasses and upgrades of the existing road should be properly assessed.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56417164
Does the report have a valid point, which should genuinely be considered (even if Nichola Mallon will refuse to contemplate anything less than a full build)?

I'm not very familiar with the A5 but it does seem like a significant stretch around Omagh does urgently need constructed. Perhaps the scheme should be completely split up, so that this section can proceed to construction and not be hindered by problems caused by the other sections?

However, is there a possibility that the southern section is being considered because of political ideology rather than there being a clear cost/benefit to doing so? For example, would the money be better spent in extending the railway line from say, Portadown to Dungannon and then onwards to Omagh (and possibly Enniskillen, although that would probably be an excessively long route)?

Alternatively, the money could go towards the Boris Burrow :lol:
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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A42_Sparks wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 14:09 An 'interim report' has put the A5 dualling on hold again and it may not even happen now:

'It found that the scheme did not have an up-to-date assessment of the flood risk along parts of the route and what was being relied on was "not fit for purpose" and predated significant flooding in the area in recent years... alternatives involving town bypasses and upgrades of the existing road should be properly assessed.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56417164
It seems a bit odd to second guess the concept when this road has been around for a dozen years or me and presumably the flooding hasn't all changed, so that one or other section could be built. This town bypass and upgrade the existing route idea means more disruption for people living near, whereas a new route would most affect cows. Presumably the present A5 route was carefully considered and is designed along similar principles to the A4 which largely left the previous A4 alone.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Enceladus »

It really is completely ridiculous and frankly disgraceful how long this critical project has been held up, blocked, opposed and delayed at every turn. :( :evil:

The A5 is a notoriously poor route - too narrow, a poor alignment, few to no safe overtaking opportunities and it so very badly needs upgrading.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by A42_Sparks »

Enceladus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 19:58 It really is completely ridiculous and frankly disgraceful how long this critical project has been held up, blocked, opposed and delayed at every turn. :( :evil:
Indeed. The A6 Randalstown-Castledawson section was originally proposed in 2003 but is only being finished now thanks to the blocking efforts of one sad little man who failed to prevent the road being built but added millions onto the cost.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by roadtester »

I know this has already been linked to/seen by members on Twitter, but I think it's worth posting a link here to nirs' detailed blog post on the subject:

https://wesleyjohnston.wordpress.com/20 ... he-a5-wtc/
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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roadtester wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 13:51 I know this has already been linked to/seen by members on Twitter, but I think it's worth posting a link here to nirs' detailed blog post on the subject:

https://wesleyjohnston.wordpress.com/20 ... he-a5-wtc/
A very good article and it mirrors my own gut feeling that the road may not now be built at all.

It's a pity nirs doesn't seem to post much on here anymore.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by IJP1 »

Yes, I think it is important to say the problems with the A5 are of a different scale from the problems with the A6 (and even it was held up 15 years).

This isn't just a matter of a few lads not liking it very much and putting in spurious legal claims at the last minute.

In this case, the issues are more complex and frankly more valid.

Ultimately, the Inspector is saying that a cost/benefit analysis for the entire project never really added up (it was, after all, a political side deal not a strategic plan) and that it adds up even less now (because costs have risen); that there is a lot of work to be done on the environmental side; and that the project as a whole will never received funding as a whole, so why is it being considered in those terms anyway?

That latter is important. The Inspector specifically says that the most southerly section (Ballygawley-Aughnacloy) is nowhere near beneficial versus cost - in other words, it is ludicrously over-engineered and basically just not necessary.

So there is no point in the Minister just saying "Ah well it's still important strategically and economically". The Inspector agrees that there is a benefit, but the benefit clearly is not worth over £1b and, in any case, £1b will never be made available for it in one go.

The response should (but probably won't) be to split the project up - it is possible to justify specific sections, it is possible to keep the relevant environmental assessments updated for shorter sections (but not for the whole thing), and it is possible to get enough money in a bid to build them. So...
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

I still go back to what I said at the beginning. It's the wrong scheme with the wrong priority.

What I also said at the beginning still holds true, however. If they must do the A5 when other projects will have far greater impacts on the strategic road network and connectivity in NI, I am still of the opinion that it should be done properly. Dual carriageway instead of half-baked overtaking lanes which will sooner or later have to be replaced with a proper solution.

Hopefully the town bypasses at least will be done to that spec.

However, and regardless of what the lobbyists will tell you, the reason why the western counties get less than the eastern counties is that the western counties not only suffer far less from chronic congestion, but the chronic congestion in the east has a very severe impact on the supply chain to the western counties. If you can't get out of Belfast Port due to York Street, it's about as useful as what IJP1 has commented to me about sorting out York Street and shifting the queue onwards to Dee Street. The A5 was in many ways a solution in search of a problem, and while useful, it wasn't going to solve the structural infrastructure problems of Northern Ireland - and nor will any other scheme that gives western counties more £ signs but doesn't help people get out of the congested east to benefit from it.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by roadtester »

One thing I hadn't appreciated until I read nirs' blog is the lack of current plans to dual the N2 on the RoI side of the border to meet the now-stalled upgrade to the A5 to the North.

I'd always assumed that this would be pretty much a certainty, given the Irish government's readiness to contribute to the A5 as a means of improving this route corridor on an all-Ireland basis. I went on a driving trip to Ireland in 2019 to try to tick off as much of the motorway network as possible, so much of which was new to me. I can remember nipping up the N2/M2 at the Dublin end and just assuming the improvements would be extended to the border once the A5 project got going properly.

I suppose that does further undermine the case for an all-HQDC or dualled road for the entire NI section of the route corridor if the numbers are at best marginal in the first place.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Bryn666 »

The only real cross-border spend that could probably be justifiable for me is an Aughnacloy bypass - the last bit of the A5 in NI is a goat track that widens out into a ROI WS2, the change is very notable. Sort this bit out, because Aughnacloy town centre is also a mess of parking and shops that should really be freed from strategic traffic. Ideally this would also connect to the new Ballygawley roundabouts.

Does the Omagh throughpass jam up by any measure? It looks like it has the potential to either work really well all the time or be a complete dog. Strabane's relief road looks like online dualling is a possibility.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by bothar »

roadtester wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 08:21 One thing I hadn't appreciated until I read nirs' blog is the lack of current plans to dual the N2 on the RoI side of the border to meet the now-stalled upgrade to the A5 to the North.
This part of the otherwise excellent blog was out of date
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41876
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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bothar wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 14:55
roadtester wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 08:21 One thing I hadn't appreciated until I read nirs' blog is the lack of current plans to dual the N2 on the RoI side of the border to meet the now-stalled upgrade to the A5 to the North.
This part of the otherwise excellent blog was out of date
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41876
Thanks - I did wonder about that!
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 14:34The only real cross-border spend that could probably be justifiable for me is an Aughnacloy bypass - the last bit of the A5 in NI is a goat track that widens out into a ROI WS2, the change is very notable. Sort this bit out, because Aughnacloy town centre is also a mess of parking and shops that should really be freed from strategic traffic...
... with matters made worse by the fact that this is the ONLY sign* that alerts you to the A5 TOTSO, right on top of the junction! I've missed that turning at least twice...

Bryn666 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 14:34Does the Omagh throughpass jam up by any measure? It looks like it has the potential to either work really well all the time or be a complete dog. Strabane's relief road looks like online dualling is a possibility.
In my experience, it works fine apart from having an inexplicable and excruciatingly painful 30 limit under the GSJ.**

*Unless things have changed within the last couple of years
**Ditto

roadtester wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:18
bothar wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 14:55
roadtester wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 08:21One thing I hadn't appreciated until I read nirs' blog is the lack of current plans to dual the N2 on the RoI side of the border to meet the now-stalled upgrade to the A5 to the North.
This part of the otherwise excellent blog was out of date
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41876
Thanks - I did wonder about that!
By far the worst part of a drive between Ardee and Derry is the A5 from Strabane to Derry. It's a chain of villages each separated by the odd clutch of fields, and as consequence the road has speed limits fluctuating constantly between 30/40 and NSL for short spurts. The overtaking opportunities on the NSL sections are almost non-existent.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by KrisW »

Owain wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 19:03 ... with matters made worse by the fact that this is the ONLY sign* that alerts you to the A5 TOTSO, right on top of the junction! I've missed that turning at least twice...
It’s also bit un-civil to not add "(N2)" to that sign, as that's the route that will actually bring you to the destination. The corresponding signage south of the border reads "N2 (A5) Derry". While I suspect the signage system’s rules tie their hands here, but the amount of non-standard signage across the rest of the UK means it must be at least possible.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Bryn666 »

KrisW wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 15:50
Owain wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 19:03 ... with matters made worse by the fact that this is the ONLY sign* that alerts you to the A5 TOTSO, right on top of the junction! I've missed that turning at least twice...
It’s also bit un-civil to not add "(N2)" to that sign, as that's the route that will actually bring you to the destination. The corresponding signage south of the border reads "N2 (A5) Derry". While I suspect the signage system’s rules tie their hands here, but the amount of non-standard signage across the rest of the UK means it must be at least possible.
Most NI border roads have the corresponding Nx listed - including this one if you come off Ballygawley Roundabout where signs proudly proclaim "Monaghan, Dublin A5 (N2)".
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by KrisW »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 20:48
KrisW wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 15:50
Owain wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 19:03 ... with matters made worse by the fact that this is the ONLY sign* that alerts you to the A5 TOTSO, right on top of the junction! I've missed that turning at least twice...
It’s also bit un-civil to not add "(N2)" to that sign, as that's the route that will actually bring you to the destination. The corresponding signage south of the border reads "N2 (A5) Derry". While I suspect the signage system’s rules tie their hands here, but the amount of non-standard signage across the rest of the UK means it must be at least possible.
Most NI border roads have the corresponding Nx listed - including this one if you come off Ballygawley Roundabout where signs proudly proclaim "Monaghan, Dublin A5 (N2)".
You are indeed correct. And you're the perfect person to ask: is this allowed for in the design manual, or is it a local exception?
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