N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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c2R
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by c2R »

Frostyj wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 21:04 No - it's not interesting. England and NI are funded by the same government.
That's what makes it interesting.

We've got wealth being redistributed, my point being that this is a good thing, as a counter to your point that you are not interested in the ports in the south of Ireland, the improvement of which, my argument went, would be of benefit to the economies of the island of Ireland as a whole.

I would have thought it fairly clear to a reasonable person that I wasn't advocating actually removing the £10bn payment - well, not until the six counties are reunited with the rest of the republic, anyway. What I was doing was comparing one area of the UK with another, for the purposes of showing that poor connectivity exists just outside the capital city in the Fenland area, so Derry is not unique in this regard.

I take your point that there are new trains in Ely, but I was talking about road haulage. Trains are fairly different and represent a very different commuter pattern in the East of England compared with the sorts of travel that occur in Derry. London effectively could be a city state, and draws in labour from all around by commuter train - Belfast simply isn't big enough to have a similarly large commuter effect on Derry.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

c2R wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 21:15
Frostyj wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 21:04 No - it's not interesting. England and NI are funded by the same government.
That's what makes it interesting.

We've got wealth being redistributed, my point being that this is a good thing, as a counter to your point that you are not interested in the ports in the south of Ireland, the improvement of which, my argument went, would be of benefit to the economies of the island of Ireland as a whole.

I would have thought it fairly clear to a reasonable person that I wasn't advocating actually removing the £10bn payment - well, not until the six counties are reunited with the rest of the republic, anyway. What I was doing was comparing one area of the UK with another, for the purposes of showing that poor connectivity exists just outside the capital city in the Fenland area, so Derry is not unique in this regard.

I take your point that there are new trains in Ely, but I was talking about road haulage. Trains are fairly different and represent a very different commuter pattern in the East of England compared with the sorts of travel that occur in Derry. London effectively could be a city state, and draws in labour from all around by commuter train - Belfast simply isn't big enough to have a similarly large commuter effect on Derry.
I seen this coming when you referred to the importance of a road to Dublin over a road to Belfast.

The constitutional position of Northern Ireland is up to we the people of Northern Ireland and only we the people. As an English person, it is not your concern. It is also not relevant to this thread.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by c2R »

You must be confusing me with an Englishman. Truth is, I'm just well travelled.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

No - you're interjecting your uninformed opinion where it was not requested.

Northern Ireland is my country, and I will decide my own country's future through my own informed opinion. Thanks.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

Owain wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 20:56
Euan wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 09:44
c2R wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 23:18

I fundamentally disagree - I travel through Belfast all the time to access the south and west of the island, as does a large amount of freight. Improving York Street directly improves freight and passenger journeys through the city to onward destinations. Strategic road policy should prioritise areas of significant congestion on strategic routes, and not be about political point scoring, vanity projects, or unlocking development. For the entire island, therefore, making the ports of Larne, Belfast, Dublin, Rosslare, and Ringaskiddy as accessible as possible must be a priority, and to do this means that in the north York Street is of enormous strategic value.
Whilst access to the main ports in Ireland is obviously a priority, it is also true that transport infrastructure in the north western quarter of the island is generally not acceptable. Primarily this is probably as a result of the area being regarded as peripheral in relation to both Dublin and Belfast. Yes the region is generally quite sparsely populated, but the A5 is part of the direct route from Dublin to Derry and it is yet to be dualled. It's not really a case of attaining equality for western parts of NI compared to the east, but more a case of having a road that is somewhat fit or purpose these days. Also, large swathes of Fermanagh, Tyrone and Donegal have no railways for more than 30 miles and therefore need adequate and safe road connections to Dublin and Belfast at least.
It seems like an age now (two-and-a-half years) since I lived in Derry!

In my view the reason why the A5 needs dualling before either the A6, the A37 Coleraine-Limavady Road, or the York Street Interchange is not so much because it is so congested, but because it is currently of such a truly diabolical standard. IMV, it's the worst Ax or Axx road in the entire UK ... and I've driven most of them in their entirety!

The A6 and A37 both have ample overtaking opportunities, but the A5 has very few. The A6 and A37 each pass through very few settlements with 30 or 40 limits, whereas the A5 passes through one after the other between Derry and Strabane. The A5 is vastly inferior to either the A6 or the A37, neither of which did I ever find unpleasant to drive (even if I often opted for a bit of 'fun' on the Murder Hole B201 instead of sticking to the main road).
Owain, you never had to go through Castledawson and Toome :)

Anyway, I'll see your A5 and raise you the A20. I was discussing it this afternoon: someone was pointing out that when they have to travel to Portaferry, the worst part of the journey is the D2/S4 section from Dundonald westwards. Once you hit the Portaferry Road out of Newtownards, you're onto a normal width S2 with no overtaking opportunities.

It's a much lower standard than the rest of the A20, as well as far lower than the A5 - think worse than the A82 round Loch Lomond. It also takes less time to travel from Newtownards to Portaferry than the rather shorter distance from south Belfast to Newtownards, and this is where frostyj's arguments fall apart.

Granted, the A20 is in the east of NI (is there any point mentioning that Portadown, Scarva, and Poyntzpass, all of which have railway stations, are all west of the Bann?) but any attempt to improve it is going to have minimal benefits. Yes, there are safety concerns due to collisions, but when drivers are acting reasonably, the only problem they face is the inability to overtake.

In terms of impacts on business and the quality of individual human lives, a few tractors between Limavady, Derry and Strabane are a minor inconvenience compared to thousands of vehicles more than the junction can handle converging on York Street Interchange.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by bothar »

AndyB wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 00:06 Granted, the A20 is in the east of NI (is there any point mentioning that Portadown, Scarva, and Poyntzpass, all of which have railway stations, are all west of the Bann?) but any attempt to improve it is going to have minimal benefits. Yes, there are safety concerns due to collisions, but when drivers are acting reasonably, the only problem they face is the inability to overtake.
The point about the railway stations is technically true, but doesn't add a lot to the discussion.
In terms of impacts on business and the quality of individual human lives, a few tractors between Limavady, Derry and Strabane are a minor inconvenience compared to thousands of vehicles more than the junction can handle converging on York Street Interchange.
The comparison of delays on long journeys to commuting congestion is comparing two slightly different things. It is always possible to support development in the most densely populated area on the basis that more people use it, but as current political developments in Britian show those left behind are not likely to accept their second class status.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

That's the point, though.

Not having a motorway or even a dual carriageway isn't second class status.

It can only be seen as second class status if you look at it through the "they got lots of money, we should have lots of money" prism of pound signs instead of objective need.

For ease of getting from A to B, for congestion, for everything but the ability to overtake a few tractors and bimblers, the west of NI has far better roads than the east.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Big L »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 14:56 Don't feel like you're unique, Norwich still has not got a completed dual carriageway connection to anywhere and is much bigger than any of the north-western towns in NI...
Is it not enough to have a dual carriageway all the way up to the bypass? To go much further in is going to need a lot of houses to be demolished I would think.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Bryn666 »

Oh yes I forgot the last bit of the A11 had been done.

Shows how little thought of that corner of the country is!
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Frostyj »

AndyB wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 07:09 That's the point, though.

Not having a motorway or even a dual carriageway isn't second class status.

It can only be seen as second class status if you look at it through the "they got lots of money, we should have lots of money" prism of pound signs instead of objective need.

For ease of getting from A to B, for congestion, for everything but the ability to overtake a few tractors and bimblers, the west of NI has far better roads than the east.
It's not a few tractors. I go up to Derry every weekend and am regularly stuck in traffic from Ballykelly onwards, in fact in the Summer months the traffic from Ballykelly can run for 3-4 miles.

So stop running with that line.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Owain »

Frostyj wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:04
AndyB wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 07:09 That's the point, though.

Not having a motorway or even a dual carriageway isn't second class status.

It can only be seen as second class status if you look at it through the "they got lots of money, we should have lots of money" prism of pound signs instead of objective need.

For ease of getting from A to B, for congestion, for everything but the ability to overtake a few tractors and bimblers, the west of NI has far better roads than the east.
It's not a few tractors. I go up to Derry every weekend and am regularly stuck in traffic from Ballykelly onwards, in fact in the Summer months the traffic from Ballykelly can run for 3-4 miles.

So stop running with that line.
There is a need for dualling the A2 between Derry City Airport and Limavady. It can be a dreadful grind through Ballykelly and Greysteel, and is quite a contrast to the A37, which is a good road (even if the B201 is loads more fun!).

As a Derry-Coleraine commuter, it wasn't tractors that bothered me, so much as the long lines of traffic trundling along at 40 (usually without their lights on, irrespective of the weather!).
AndyB wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 00:06Owain, you never had to go through Castledawson and Toome :)
Sure .... but doesn't that rather support my point that the A6 is really not that bad a road? Once the dualling is completed from the M22 to the little dualled section near Toome, the only blip will be Dungiven. The rest of it is, IMV, a really good road!

Compare that with the A5 between Derry and Strabane, which seems to be almost continuous 30-40-30-40-etc, and which boasts few straights and hardly any overtaking lanes, poor sight-lines and frequent hatched areas and side-turnings.
AndyB wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 00:06Anyway, I'll see your A5 and raise you the A20. I was discussing it this afternoon: someone was pointing out that when they have to travel to Portaferry, the worst part of the journey is the D2/S4 section from Dundonald westwards. Once you hit the Portaferry Road out of Newtownards, you're onto a normal width S2 with no overtaking opportunities.
If you say the A20 is worse, I'll have to take a look at it next time I'm over. I drove down Scotland's A9 at the weekend, and I felt very nostalgic about the Glenshane Pass. Got back and immediately started planning a trip to Bushmills... haven't been to Ireland for well over a year now. :cry:
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by nowster »

Frostyj wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 21:51 Northern Ireland is my country, and I will decide my own country's future through my own informed opinion. Thanks.
Dead on! Please stop reading the sections about Britain and the rest of the world. There is nothing worthwhile there.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by odlum »

Roads are more geographical concerns than they are political in my humble opinion esspecially on an island.

For example i'm just as concerned with having proper connections with Larne as I am with Rosslare.

It's not either/or.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by Euan »

odlum wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:30 Roads are more geographical concerns than they are political in my humble opinion esspecially on an island.

For example i'm just as concerned with having proper connections with Larne as I am with Rosslare.

It's not either/or.
Absolutely.

Don't forget as well that the population of Dublin is roughly three times the population of Belfast, so it surely makes sense to prioritise connections to Dublin from Derry regardless of the fact that the journey is on both sides of the border.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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SABRE inevitably attracts people with many political views, however this is no the forum to discuss whether someone is enttled to theirs or not.

SABRE does not exist in isolation of the real world, and it is the mark of a free society that you can have an opinion, express it and be replied to provided it is done with respect and our posting guidelines whether it diectly impacts you or impacts you not one iota.

If a post is within those guidelines and within the context of the thread irrespective of who is posting, it is a valid post. If you are concerned that it is not, please highlight it to the SMT and do not armchair moderate the thread yourself.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

It all depends on what the distribution routes are. The finest new road from Dublin to Aughnacloy isn’t much use to the haulier if Dublin serves Belfast and Craigavon, Craigavon serves the south west and Belfast serves the north west.

I’ve no figures on that, but we do know that the road across the border is the least trafficked section of the entire A5/N2 route, and that’s why that section has been dropped pending improvements by the Irish government.

Of course there is through traffic, not just for Co Donegal, but demand depends on how each haulier runs their hub and spoke operation.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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Peripheral areas often get short changed in infrastructure, especially borders, as a lot of the spending requires knowing what the other side of the line is going to do unless you end up with a white elephant.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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exiled wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 15:22 Peripheral areas often get short changed in infrastructure, especially borders, as a lot of the spending requires knowing what the other side of the line is going to do unless you end up with a white elephant.
The same can be said in relation to the edges of the remits of different transport agencies or local authorities meeting each other along a continuous road. The same road will, from a maintenance perspective, will be watched from two different angles along with what is quite often two different ideas of what to do next.

All of the roads in NI are maintained by DfI Roads which, like many other large transport bodies, is split into various subdivisions to make the organisation more workable and manageable. The transport provisions within these subdivisions may even differ slightly as well, but I suspect not as much as they would differ between completely separate agencies.

Naturally a road authority will start from the middle and work outwards towards the edge of its jurisdiction which may be interrupted if something such as financial trouble was to crop up. In theory, that could lead to peripheral regions being neglected for a long time before improvement programmes get back on track. Based on that, it would seem likely that the area around Aughnacloy would probably be the last part of the N2/A5 route for TII and DfI Roads to make plans for.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

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Euan wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 16:18
exiled wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 15:22 Peripheral areas often get short changed in infrastructure, especially borders, as a lot of the spending requires knowing what the other side of the line is going to do unless you end up with a white elephant.
The same can be said in relation to the edges of the remits of different transport agencies or local authorities meeting each other along a continuous road. The same road will, from a maintenance perspective, will be watched from two different angles along with what is quite often two different ideas of what to do next.
Of course, by borders I meant any demarcation between any body especially ones doing the same or similar job. Often seen at its most impressive in a bad winter when one side is spotlessly cleared the other is an obstacle. On LA roads I often can tell when the boundary out of South Lanarkshire is crossed by the wheel braille.
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Re: N.IRL: A5 Derry Dual Carriageway Progress updates

Post by AndyB »

I think major schemes such as the A5, A6 and A26 are decided at a central level, even though presumably one division will lead on the implementation.

Ballygawley to Aughnacloy died a death because there’s nothing to connect to. The days when Comber town council would build a dual carriageway most of the way to Newtownards because they wanted to, even though Newtownards council wasn’t interested in finishing the job, are gone - if it’s a border road in need of more than resurfacing they talk to each other.
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