Roads I've driven in their entirety....

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chris486
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by chris486 »

The President can now add the A579 and A665 to his haul - other roads too. I'll leave those to him to update.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by Owain »

chris486 wrote:The President can now add the A579 and A665 to his haul - other roads too. I'll leave those to him to update.
I did the A635 to get back home.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by Johnathan404 »

exiled wrote:Today added the ROI M9 to the list and think there may be a secret motorway at Kilkenny.
The N10? It is a complete and utter Catthorpe.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

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Johnathan404 wrote:
exiled wrote:Today added the ROI M9 to the list and think there may be a secret motorway at Kilkenny.
The N10? It is a complete and utter Catthorpe.
That is the one...
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by si404 »

The M10 exists on paper (ditto the M21).
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by KeithW »

si404 wrote:The M10 exists on paper (ditto the M21).
The M10 USED to exist on paper and the road is still there (A414) but it doesnt appear on any modern maps or the Highways England route list. I did drive it back when it was a motorway so it would appear on my list.

The M21 is a number that has been reserved for use in NI as I understand it.

You can make an argument that A21(M) did exist and is now designated M25 as it is a spur to the Sevenoaks bypass. As I never did actually drove that one I c.an offer no personal knowledge but it has been discussed before on Sabre. A discussion in which you participated as I recall

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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by Owain »

KeithW wrote:
si404 wrote:The M10 exists on paper (ditto the M21).
The M10 USED to exist on paper and the road is still there (A414) but it doesnt appear on any modern maps or the Highways England route list. I did drive it back when it was a motorway so it would appear on my list.

The M21 is a number that has been reserved for use in NI as I understand it.
I think Simon is referring to the M10 and M21 in the Republic of Ireland (which is where exiled and Johnathan both are, at present).
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by KeithW »

Owain wrote:
KeithW wrote:
si404 wrote:The M10 exists on paper (ditto the M21).
The M10 USED to exist on paper and the road is still there (A414) but it doesnt appear on any modern maps or the Highways England route list. I did drive it back when it was a motorway so it would appear on my list.

The M21 is a number that has been reserved for use in NI as I understand it.
I think Simon is referring to the M10 and M21 in the Republic of Ireland (which is where exiled and Johnathan both are, at present).
Neither of which exist. There is an N10 and N21 which may at some point be upgraded and become a Motorway and take on the 'M' prefix but as far as I am aware there is no budget or time scale for either to be done. In fact parts of the N10 have been downgraded and renamed R712. I have seen the entries for a disputed M21 and M10 and they are deeply unconvincing. The road continuing from the end of the M20 is clearly signed N21 and there is an end of motorway regulations sign.

There is a list of Irish roads declared to be motorways issued by the Irish Minister of Transport, neither of these purported motorways exist on that list.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by si404 »

KeithW wrote:The M10 USED to exist on paper and the road is still there (A414) but it doesnt appear on any modern maps or the Highways England route list. I did drive it back when it was a motorway so it would appear on my list.
It used to exist on the ground too, with signs and all and so I wouldn't need to specify "on paper".
The M21 is a number that has been reserved for use in NI as I understand it.
The M21 was reserved for the M2-International Airport motorway. I don't believe it's reserved anymore. However NI is a different numbering system, so I don't know why it would come up if you thought I was talking about Britain!

But, as Owain said, I was talking about the Republic of Ireland as that was the context of the posts above mine.
KeithW wrote:Neither of which exist. There is an N10 and N21 which may at some point be upgraded and become a Motorway and take on the 'M' prefix but as far as I am aware there is no budget or time scale for either to be done.
They already have had parts that are motorway. Very short parts. But parts none the less.
In fact parts of the N10 have been downgraded and renamed R712.
:roll: because they built a new N10 alignment to link it to the M9, which has a very short amount under motorway regulations. :roll:

That's like saying "parts of the N18 have been downgraded to R458". The route moved, and part of it even became motorway (much more of the new route being motorway than not for the N18 and vice versa for the N10).
I have seen the entries for a disputed M21 and M10 and they are deeply unconvincing. The road continuing from the end of the M20 is clearly signed N21 and there is an end of motorway regulations sign.
Indeed, but what does that have to with "on paper"? The whole thing about something existing "on paper" is that it doesn't need specifying as such if it existed on the ground!

The end of motorway regulations signs are the other side of the junction from where route 21 begins. Eastbound is signed with M20 on the chopsticks, sure, and westbound signed as N21 with green signs (just as the slips are signed N20 with green signs, despite being under motorway regs until the top and the M20 mainline!) but that's a common thing when routes inescapably lead to another road. eg this pointing along the A195(M). Or, for a much more relevant Irish example, the now defunct M32 that was unsigned.

I find signs deeply unconvincing as a disproof that the M10 and M21 exist on paper.
There is a list of Irish roads declared to be motorways issued by the Irish Minister of Transport, neither of these purported motorways exist on that list.
But they are declared to be motorways on their route descriptions (and the N9 and N20 don't have spurs to these roads), issued by the Irish Minister of Transport (and more recently AFAICS: 2012 vs 2009).

N10:
"Between its junction with M9 at CLIFDEN and its junction with M9 at Danesfort via Templemartin, Blanchfieldsland, Middleknock, Kilkenny Ring Road, Smithsland South and Outrath all in the county of Kilkenny."

N21:
"Between its junction with M20 at ATTYFLIN in the county of Limerick and its junction with N70 at Moyderwell in the town of Tralee via Ballybronoge South, Adare, Adamswood, Amogan Beg, Wolfesburgess West, Ballinlyny, Killeheen, Reens Bridge, Ballyfraley Bridge; Saint Marys Road, Courtenay Bridge and South Quay in the town of Newcastle West; Garryduff, Barnagh, Templeglantan, Goulburn Bridge; Main Street, The Square and Bridge Street in the town Abbeyfeale; and Kilkinlea Lower in the county of Limerick: Kilmaniheen West, Ballyduff, Dooneen, Portduff, Knockannagore, Knockeen, Cloghermore, Ballymacthomas, Ballycarty Cross and Clashlehane Bridge in the county of Kerry: Ratass, Quill Street and Boherboy in the town of Tralee."

and here's the old (2006) description of the N32, whose former motorway status has not been disputed:
"Between its junction with M1 at TURNAPIN in the county of Fingal and its junction with R107 at Darndale in the city of Dublin via Belcamp in the city of Dublin."

It's the same thing.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by Jeni »

I'm looking at streetview and unless it's changed again recently, none of the N10 is motorway. When joining the M9, no chopsticks until you reach the mainline. When leaving the M9, the end of motorway signs are almost immediate.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by si404 »

Indeed, it's maybe 30m of each of the two off-slips (assuming the N10 route starts at the gore, cf the chopsticks on the on-slips) that are N10 under motorway regulations.

But even if the end chopsticks were at the gore, that still doesn't mean it doesn't exist on paper.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by KeithW »

si404 wrote: But they are declared to be motorways on their route descriptions (and the N9 and N20 don't have spurs to these roads), issued by the Irish Minister of Transport (and more recently AFAICS: 2012 vs 2009).

N10:
"Between its junction with M9 at CLIFDEN and its junction with M9 at Danesfort via Templemartin, Blanchfieldsland, Middleknock, Kilkenny Ring Road, Smithsland South and Outrath all in the county of Kilkenny."

N21:
"Between its junction with M20 at ATTYFLIN in the county of Limerick and its junction with N70 at Moyderwell in the town of Tralee via Ballybronoge South, Adare, Adamswood, Amogan Beg, Wolfesburgess West, Ballinlyny, Killeheen, Reens Bridge, Ballyfraley Bridge; Saint Marys Road, Courtenay Bridge and South Quay in the town of Newcastle West; Garryduff, Barnagh, Templeglantan, Goulburn Bridge; Main Street, The Square and Bridge Street in the town Abbeyfeale; and Kilkinlea Lower in the county of Limerick: Kilmaniheen West, Ballyduff, Dooneen, Portduff, Knockannagore, Knockeen, Cloghermore, Ballymacthomas, Ballycarty Cross and Clashlehane Bridge in the county of Kerry: Ratass, Quill Street and Boherboy in the town of Tralee."
The document in which that text appears has the following preamble

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/53/made/en/print wrote: Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in

“Iris Oifigiúil” of 28th February, 2012.

I, LEO VARADKAR, Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by sections 8 , 10 (1)(a) and (3)(a) of the Roads Act 1993 (No. 14 of 1993), and the National Roads and Road Traffic (Transfer of Departmental Administration and Ministerial Functions) Order 2002 ( S.I. No. 298 of 2002 ) (as adapted by the Transport (Alteration of Name of Department and Title of Minister) Order 2011 ( S.I. No. 141 of 2011 )) after consultation with the National Roads Authority, hereby order as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Roads Act 1993 (Classification of National Roads) Order 2012.

2. Each public road mentioned by number beside the letter N in column (1) opposite a description of the road in column (2), of Schedule 1 is classified as a national road and is a national primary road.

3. Each public road mentioned by number beside the letter N in column (1) opposite a description of the road in column (2), of Schedule 2 is classified as a national road and is a national secondary road.

4. Reference in a Schedule to the letter—

(a) N followed by a number is a reference to a particular national road,

(b) R followed by a number is a reference to a particular regional road, and

(c) M followed by a number is a reference to a particular national road or regional road or part of it which is a motorway.

5. The Orders referred to in Schedule 3 are revoked.
NOWHERE in that document is it stated that any part of those roads is classified as a motorway, nor is there any entry in the schedule that is as defined in (c) it is in short a list of National Roads not Motorways or regional roads.

It is common for slip roads leading from Motorways to/from trunk roads to have a short section under motorway regulations. The M11 to A11 spur for example there is however no A11(M) both the spur and the main line carry the designation M11. In this case the reason is simple, what is now the Spur was the line of the M11 as built when it terminated at Stump Cross. The Cambridge eastern bypass section was added later.

There are some short spurs that are separately designated as such and they appear on the relevant statutory documents and in some cases are signed such as the A66(M)
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by Jeni »

Keith, I believe you're getting how motorways are defined in the UK vs Ireland mixed up. What you say doesn't apply to Ireland.

All of that said, the lengths of the N10 under motorway restrictions are so minuscule that I'll happily call it that the M10 doesn't exist in any meaningful form.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

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KeithW wrote:NOWHERE in that document is it stated that any part of those roads is classified as a motorway
Can you tell me where it states that the M2 or M3 exist?
N2

Dublin — Moy Bridge, County Monaghan — (Derry)Between its junction with M50 at Balseskin in the county of Fingal and the boundary between the county of Monaghan and the county of Tyrone at Moy Bridge via Coldwinters, Newtown and CHERRYHOUND (and including link road to the R135) in the county of Fingal: FLEENSTOWN LITTLE (and including link road to the R135), HARLOCKSTOWN COOKSTOWN and Rath in the county of Meath: Baltrasna in the county of Fingal: Primatestown, Cushinstown, Balrath, Flemingstown, Slane and Balrenny in the county of Meath: Emersons Bridge; Church Street and Ardee Street at Collon; Anaglog, Blakestown; Drogheda Road, Bridge Street, Castle Street, Market Street, Irish Street, Fairgreen and Glebe in the town of Ardee; and Knocklore in the county of Louth: Aclint Bridge at the boundary between the county of Louth and the county of Monaghan: Drumturk, Drummond Otra, Kavanagh Way, Monanny, Annahaia, Brackagh, Broomfield, Tullyvin, Muldrumman, Lislanly, Kilcrow, Castleshane Demesne, Moyles, Corlat, Annahagh, Tullyhirm, Coolshannagh in the town of Monaghan, Tirnaneill, Emyvale and Derrykinard in the county of Monaghan.

N3

Dublin — Aghalane, County Cavan and Cloghore — Ballyshannon, County Donegal — (via Enniskillen)Between its junction with M50 in the county of Fingal and the boundary between the county of Cavan and the county of Fermanagh at Senator George Mitchell Bridge Aghalane via Blanchardstown Bypass, Huntstown and DAMASTOWN in the county of Fingal: CLONEE BYPASS, LOUGHSALLAGH, PACE, PIERCETOWN, RAYNESTOWN, KNOCKS, BLUNDELSTOWN, KENNASTOWN (and including link road to the R147), BOYERSTOWN, GRANGE, COOKSTOWN GREAT (and including link road to the R147), ROCKFIELD, Calliaghstown, Drumbaragh and Derver in the county of Meath: Lisduff, Rahardrum, Virginia, Lisgrea, Drumanbane, Knockanoark, Lavey, Killygarry, Pollamore Near, Cullies, Drumcalpin, Drumahurk, Tullybuck, Kilnaleck and Kilduff; Corporation Lands, Erne Hill, Deaney Street, Holborn Hill, Butler Street, Upper Bridge Street and Lower Bridge Street at Belturbet; Kilconny and Drumcole in the county of Cavan

and

between the boundary between the county of Fermanagh and the county of Donegal at Cloghore and its junction with N15 at Ballyhanna in the town of Ballyshannon via Cloghore Cross, Camlin; and Allingham Road in the town of Ballyshannon all in the county of Donegal.
The M1 has references in the schedules for the N33 and N51 (not N53, for some reason). The M4 in the schedule for the N6. M6 in the N52, N62 and N65. M7 in N8, N9, N20 and N52. M8: N73, N74, N75. M9: N10, N78. M11: N50. M18: N19. M20: N7, N18, N21. M50: N1, N2, N3, N4, N7, N31 and N81. But no N road begins/ends on the M2, M3, M10 or M21, so no reference to them is made.

Unless, of course, those capitals mean something...
Jeni wrote:All of that said, the lengths of the N10 under motorway restrictions are so minuscule that I'll happily call it that the M10 doesn't exist in any meaningful form.
I totally agree with this. It exists, just not in a meaningful way, and only for the length of the word ATTYFLIN in the SI.

I've never said anything more than it existing on paper.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by KeithW »

Jeni wrote:Keith, I believe you're getting how motorways are defined in the UK vs Ireland mixed up. What you say doesn't apply to Ireland.

All of that said, the lengths of the N10 under motorway restrictions are so minuscule that I'll happily call it that the M10 doesn't exist in any meaningful form.
What I quoted comes from the Irish Ministry of Transport
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

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si404 wrote:
KeithW wrote:NOWHERE in that document is it stated that any part of those roads is classified as a motorway
Can you tell me where it states that the M2 or M3 exist?
Certainly
="http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009 ... e/en/print"]
S.I. No. 255 of 2009

ROADS ACT 2007 (DECLARATION OF MOTORWAYS) ORDER 2009
Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in
“Iris Oifigiúil” of 10th July, 2009.

I, Noel Dempsey, Minister for Transport, on the application of the National Roads Authority, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 8(1) of the Roads Act 2007 (No. 34 of 2007), and having complied with the requirements of subsection (2) of that section, hereby order as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Roads Act 2007 (Declaration of Motorways) Order 2009.
2. This Order comes into operation on 28th of August 2009.
3. The national roads or proposed road developments mentioned in the Schedule are declared as motorways.

Schedule SECTIONS OF NATIONAL ROADS AND PROPOSED ROAD DEVELOPMENTS DECLARED AS MOTORWAYS UNDER THIS ORDER
Reference in this Schedule to—
N followed by a number is a reference to a national road
R followed by a number is a reference to a regional road

N2 — Killshane to Ashbourne

The section of the N2 between the grade separated junction known as Cherryhound in the townland of Killshane in the county of Fingal and its junction with the R135 in the townland of Rath in the county of Meath, via the townlands of Cherryhound and Ward Lower in the county of Fingal and Irishtown, Newtown Commons, Wotton, Fleenstown Little, Baltrasna, Harlockstown and Cookstown in the county of Meath.

N3 — Littlepace to Loughsallagh

The section of the N3 from its junction with the R156 at Littlepace in the county of Fingal to Loughsallagh in the county of Meath, via the townland of Damastown in the county of Fingal and Clonee in the county of Meath.
etc
You will find no declaration of motorway for the N10 or N21 and the ONLY references to either road are as points where declared motorways terminate as here which is a clear statement that the M20 terminates at its junction with the N21.
N20 — Limerick to Attyflin (also known as the N20/N21 Junction)
The section of the N20 from a point 660m south of the existing N7/N20 junction at Rossbrien to its junction with the N21 at Ballybronoge South, via the townlands of Dooradoyle, Rootiagh, Barnakyle and Attyflin, all in the county of Limerick.
The Statutory Instrument is the place where a motorway exists on paper.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by si404 »

KeithW wrote:
si404 wrote:
KeithW wrote:NOWHERE in that document is it stated that any part of those roads is classified as a motorway
Can you tell me where it states that the M2 or M3 exist?
Certainly
That's not "it" - you made a meal out of a lack of references in the 2012 Classification of National Roads SI to the M10, but there's none to the M2 or M3 in that document and you go find another one (which is pretty much unique - there's only two other SIs making a road a motorway*)
which is a clear statement that the M20 terminates at its junction with the N21.
Which is true - the M21 is entirely within the junction, and - like all Irish motorways - is an inherent part of the N road.

But if you think that this is enough to say that something isn't a motorway, then the Dundalk bypass isn't motorway:
(Classification of National Roads) Order 2012. wrote:N53

Dundalk, County Louth — Castleblayney, County Monaghan

Between its junction with N1 at Newtownbalregan in the county of Louth
:twisted:

*Edit: here's a list of motorways described as such in SIs like the ones you think are necessary:
N2 — Killshane to Ashbourne
N3 — Littlepace to Loughsallagh, Loughsallagh to Pace
N4 — Kinnegad to McNead’s Bridge
N6 — Kinnegad to Kilbeggan, Kilbeggan to Athlone, Athlone to Ballinasloe, Galway to Ballinasloe
N7 — Castletown to Nenagh, Nenagh to Limerick, Limerick Southern Ring Road Phase 1, Proposed N7/N20 Rossbrien Interchange
N8 — Urlingford to Cashel, Cashel Bypass, Cashel to Mitchelstown, Mitchelstown to Fermoy, Watergrasshill to Glanmire, Glanmire Bypass
N9 — Kilcullen to Powerstown, Waterford to Powerstown
N11 — Ashford to Rathnew (declared motorway twice), Arklow Bypass (declared motorway twice), Rathnew to Arklow, Arklow to Gorey
N18 — Shannon to Ennis, Ennis Bypass, Gort to Crusheen, Oranmore to Gort
N20 — Limerick to Attyflin

Note no M1, no M4 east of Kinnegad, no M7 east of Castletown, no M8 north of Urlingford or between Fermoy and Watergrasshill, no M11 near Bray, no M50.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

Post by Owain »

I think the Irish govt should intervene as a matter of urgency to clear up this mess!


Anyway, I've just finished the A49.
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

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Owain wrote:I think the Irish govt should intervene as a matter of urgency to clear up this mess!
But if they're like the UK's Department for Transport they'll forward you to SABRE!
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Re: Roads I've driven in their entirety....

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http://tm.teresco.org/user/?u=si404 has my road travels mapped. I've travelled all of (note how most are short A roads)

M2, M3, M6, M6Toll, M20, M23, M25, M26, M27, M32, M40, M48, M50, M54, M66, M67, M69, M271, M275, M898, A3(M), A38(M), A48(M), A74(M), A308(M), A329(M), A404(M), A11, A100, A101, A102, A104, A112, A114, A147, A158, A200, A201, A230, A254, A255, A256, A257, A258, A280, A282, A284, A291, A300, A301, A302, A326, A333, A336, A337, A346, A349, A351, A355, A373, A382, A391, A392, A393, A394, A397, A401, A405, A416, A418, A464, A498, A501, A555, A558, A898, A1008, A1009, A1011, A1054, A1056 (Norwich), A1069, A1080, A1137, A1146, A1168, A1199 (both versions), A1200, A1202, A1205, A1206, A1207, A1208, A1209, A1211, A1246, A1400, A2031, A2032, A2198, A2204, A2205, A2206, A2208, A2211, A2215, A2990, A3020, A3021, A3024, A3025, A3035, A3054, A3055, A3059, A3075, A3083, A3200, A3201, A3202, A3203, A3204, A3211, A3212, A3213, A3290, A4032, A4044, A4053, A4077, A4078, A4114, A4128, A4142, A4143, A4145, A4150, A4154, A4178, A4183, A4200, A4202, A4205, A4206, A4207, A4208, A4234, A4540, A4971, A5126, A5152 (Anglesey), A5201, A5203, A5204, A5205, A5223, A5227, A5268, A5271 (Keswick), A6008, A6013 (Bamford), A6464.

Actually driven? Then that's the A4154, B485 and B4441. I've walked (London ones) or cycled (South Hants) a fair few roads in their entirety unreliant on another driving me.
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