M5 Junction 29 Works

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

SteveA30
Member
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by SteveA30 »

I'm sure the HA wouldn't voluntarily embrace such a scheme, when they have been busily upgrading junctions to freeflow all over the place, including the A30 further west, along with the A1, A419, A550, A500 and others.

I'd like to see some of the paperwork for this. It may reveal the HA being leaned on from other organisations, such as the Regional Assembly or, central Government to 'agree' to this botch job. Would an FOI request reveal such documents, if they exist, or can certain docs be withheld from a request, at their discretion?
User avatar
RichardA35
Committee Member
Posts: 5705
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by RichardA35 »

A303Chris wrote:That is a disaster, but the free flow link between A30 W/B and M5 S/B could still be inplace as the location of the signals is not shown. The slip from the A30 could free flow into lane 1 of the slip and the lane 2 of the slip could be for traffic going through the junctions from the A30 E/B and new access road. Not ideal but it would work.

I would like to see the Stage 1 and Stage 2 Safety Audit on it. May be a freedom of information request
Unfortunately not so as this plan confirms.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Bryn666 »

Impressive, someone has proposed a Toucan Crossing on a motorway sliproad and to join the M5 South involves going through 3 sets of signals on a jughandle... this isn't the work of transport professionals.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by SouthWest Philip »

SteveA30 wrote:I'm sure the HA wouldn't voluntarily embrace such a scheme, when they have been busily upgrading junctions to freeflow all over the place, including the A30 further west, along with the A1, A419, A550, A500 and others.

I'd like to see some of the paperwork for this. It may reveal the HA being leaned on from other organisations, such as the Regional Assembly or, central Government to 'agree' to this botch job. Would an FOI request reveal such documents, if they exist, or can certain docs be withheld from a request, at their discretion?
Is there way of forcing a public inquiry? I'd certainly like to attend if there is one! How many objections would be needed to prevent the County Council forcing this scheme through?
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Excuse my double post, but here's my rather crude attempt at showing my ideas for M5 jnc 29A. Perhaps somebody more clever than me, like Truvelo, could do a more professional version of it? :wink:

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/d ... =145&pos=0

A new junction on the M5 to the north could take care of all movements whilst the existing junction could be left as a now fully free-flowing link to/from the M5(S)/A30(E). The new roundabout interchange could utilise the existing Tithebarn Lane overbridge with a link road passing through connecting the Honiton Road (old A30) east of the M5 and the Monkerton Link west of the motorway.

The other diagram in the bottom right is an alternative where traffic between Sowton Ind. Est. and M5(S) would have to use jnc 30, as at present.
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17468
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Truvelo »

That's an excellent plan Philip. It looks like something that could easily be built without much hassle. DavidBrown's idea of moving the services at J30 could mean them being situated at your J29 roundabout instead :mrgreen:
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
User avatar
si404
Member
Posts: 10885
Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 13:25
Location: Amersham

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by si404 »

SouthWest Philip wrote:Excuse my double post, but here's my rather crude attempt at showing my ideas for M5 jnc 29A. Perhaps somebody more clever than me, like Truvelo, could do a more professional version of it? :wink:
It's not quite the same around Blackhorse, but here's the plan on an OS map
Attachments
M5 29a.PNG
"“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations" Thomas Jefferson
Jeni
Banned
Posts: 7313
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 22:28

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Jeni »

As much as we dislike it, we have to admit that the long term plan for A303/A30 traffic to access the M5 is via the A358, so in the grand scheme of things J29 isn't as important as it once was in the eyes of the HA.
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17468
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Truvelo »

Oh dear, I've seem to have lost my edge as Sabre's premier map drawer :cry:

I can't see why the Blackhorse junction has to close. It's not as if J29 is getting any closer to it.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by SouthWest Philip »

sabristo simon wrote:
SouthWest Philip wrote:...here's my rather crude attempt...
It's not quite the same around Blackhorse, but here's the plan on an OS map
Yep, that's the idea! (Plus the Clyst Honiton bypass as well, of course.) Thank you Simon. In theory all this could be done with just one new major structure (the second Tithebarn Bridge to form the roundabout interchange) and some new link roads following existing alignments. It might also be necessary to include a pedestrian subway under the A30 westbound to M5 southbound sliproad to allow for a cycle/footpath between Blackhorse/Sowton Village and Sowton Industrial Estate.

Of course, some changes in terms of road numbering related to this scheme. None of this should be a problem as Devon CC like changing road numbers from time to time!

* Link from new jnc 29 roundabout west to Monkerton Link, then B3212 into Exeter City Centre becomes A3xxx. (Either A3105 or new number, like A3127, to avoid confusion.)
* Link from new jnc 29 roundabout east to Honiton Road (old A30), continuing along old A30 to Ottery St Mary (Diasy Mount) Interchange becomes B3182.
* A3015 west of present jnc 29 (Honiton Road) to jnc with B3181 Hill Barton Road/Rydon Lane also becomes B3182.
* B3183 between Sidmouth Road (B3181) and Barrack Road declassifed and ceases to become recognised commuter route into City Centre. Fore Street, Heavitree can then be "enhanced" in that way local councils like to do these things!
* Barrack Road bewteen Topsham Road (present A3105) and Heavitree Road becomes B3183.
* A3015 Rydon Lane between Honiton Road and A379 junction becomes B3181.
* A376 extended from M5 jnc 30 west to City Centre via A379 and A3015 Topsham Road.
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Truvelo wrote:I can't see why the Blackhorse junction has to close. It's not as if J29 is getting any closer to it.
I suppose you could keep it, and possibly do away with the link road east of the new jnc 29 roundabout. I just think with all the development planned along the old A30 it would be better to keep this local traffic as separate as possible from the through traffic. And given that the new bypass at Clyst Honiton will provide the necessary access from the Rockbeare area to the A30 - and assuming that the link road from the M5 to the old A30 is built - then why keep the Blackhorse junction? (It might be good, however, to extend the A30 D3 section to the B3184 junction.) Keeping the Blackhorse junction there would only encourage the council to come up with more schemes to put at-grade junctions, development and the like. Also, and I know Turvelo will like this, you could do away with the 40mph limit on the A30!
Jeni wrote:As much as we dislike it, we have to admit that the long term plan for A303/A30 traffic to access the M5 is via the A358, so in the grand scheme of things J29 isn't as important as it once was in the eyes of the HA.
The developments planned in east Devon make it all the more important that the A303/A30 route (along with the railway) gets upgraded. (And I haven't given up hope yet on that happening!) I do not believe that all the people living in new houses in and and around Hontion are going to head west to the M5 before returning to Taunton to pick up a diverted A303 from there to get to the South East.

If the Tories get into Government this year it is possible that the A303/A30 will be considered a higher priority than at present.
SteveA30
Member
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:52
Location: Dorset

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by SteveA30 »

So, as South West Philip said, how do you force a Public Enquiry, if it isn't too late?

I think the Tithebarne Lane plan is worth submitting to DCC, even if it is only to delay things, while a campaign is organised. There may be controversy in the local press although, I suspect the locals are sleepwalking into it.
User avatar
Stevie D
Member
Posts: 8000
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:19
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Stevie D »

sabristo simon wrote:
SouthWest Philip wrote:Excuse my double post, but here's my rather crude attempt at showing my ideas for M5 jnc 29A. Perhaps somebody more clever than me, like Truvelo, could do a more professional version of it? :wink:
It's not quite the same around Blackhorse, but here's the plan on an OS map
Unless I've missed something, that introduces a huge diversion and inconvenience for traffic heading out of Exeter onto the A30, which is a pretty significant traffic flow to disrupt like that.
User avatar
jackal
Member
Posts: 7549
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 23:33
Location: M6

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by jackal »

Yeah that's an awful lot of extra roundabouts for Exeter<->A30 traffic, including the airport junction which will be overloaded by developments already.

There are a couple of rejected alternatives here which are no great shakes but would've been better. Interestingly it appears that the HA's opposition to the weaving between Blackhorse and the M5 may have been a factor in scheme selection, though they don't usually solve weaving by putting traffic lights on freeflowing trunk road mainlines.

So I would take the first rejected scheme as my basis but do something about the weaving. Looking at Blackhorse I think there might be space for three lanes each way under the bridge, in which case the slips can be replaced with a loop east of the bridge, extending the weaving distance and removing the need for braiding. It's also then possible to put in the missing movement at J29 and freeflow M5Nb-A30Eb in a similar way to Truvelo's proposal:
Image
The period for formal written comments ended in August 2009 (see here). I guess that would be the main way a public enquiry might get forced.
DavidBrown
Member
Posts: 8398
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 00:35

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by DavidBrown »

Here's my takes on Phil's generally excellent plan;
J29A.png
This first plan allows full access at J29A (the new junction - I'm aware that it's slightly out of sequence). The B3184 Tithebarn Lane upgrade links into the top end of the Clyst Honiton bypass, allowing not only Science Park traffic but also traffic from proposed developments at Cranbrook and Exeter Airport quick access to the M5 north, which is where most trade traffic will be heading. Having a new road will also mean that it can be designed to carry bus, cycle and pedestrian facilities, rather than bodging them onto the A30. The layout of the Science Park is as accurate as I can get, given our changes and that there's about 5 different plans online! The new pedestrian bridge across the M5 is proposed in reality.

The A3015/A30 junction is still signalised to take into account the A3015 to A30 movement (which, as Stevie points out, is fairly significant). Traffic heading for the M5 south can use the upgraded Monkerton Link and the new junction. The current sliproad to the M5 north is diverted to the new J29A, before northbound traffic uses the new sliproad. Northbound exiting traffic from the M5 joins up to the roundabout.

The current Blackbrook junction is closed (it simply isn't necescarry).




J29A (B).png
The second plan involves some changes regarding the sliproads west of the main M5. J29 remains almost exactly as is, with no northbound off-slip to J29A. Traffic leaving the northbound M5 can access the new developments via the existing movements at the light controlled junction and the Monkerton Links.

(And yes, I'm now aware that I've not fully done the bridge over the M5 on here).
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Chris Bertram »

Chris5156 wrote:
I wish we had more partial access freeflow junctions where primary routes and motorways meet (M5 J10 is one that actually got built).
That's not even a primary route, IIRC - and neither is the M27/A32 junction, which is very similar.
I just checked on Streetmap, and, as I thought, the A4019 *is* primary from the motorway to the centre of Cheltenham, though not in the other direction to Coombe Hill where it meets the (also non-primary) A38.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
A303Chris
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 3587
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 14:01
Location: Reading

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by A303Chris »

Bryn666 wrote:Impressive, someone has proposed a Toucan Crossing on a motorway sliproad and to join the M5 South involves going through 3 sets of signals on a jughandle... this isn't the work of transport professionals.
Bryn, As a fully qualified Transport Planner /Engineer with the Institute of Highway Engineers, I have to totally agree. This is just awful and I would be ashamed if i or any of my team promoted this. As stated earlier a stage 1 safety audit has to be done on premilminary design, followed by a stage 2 on detail design. There has to be stage 1 and therefore a FOI should get a copy of it.
The M25 - The road to nowhere
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by Bryn666 »

I'm guessing some 'friendly' design consultant who represents the planned science park knocked this one up then...
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
RichardA35
Committee Member
Posts: 5705
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by RichardA35 »

Bryn666 wrote:I'm guessing some 'friendly' design consultant who represents the planned science park knocked this one up then...
Bryn, if you find out who has the A30/A35 DBFO concession, who owns Exeter airport, who owns Parsons Brinkerhoff and who is currently contractor for Area 2 and you found they were the same company you might possibly have grounds for being suspicious.......
A307Patrick
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 15:16

Re: Awful things happening to M5 J29 (A30)

Post by A307Patrick »

I agree with the above ideas of alerting the local press to this and trying to force a public enquiry.
Jeni wrote:As much as we dislike it, we have to admit that the long term plan for A303/A30 traffic to access the M5 is via the A358, so in the grand scheme of things J29 isn't as important as it once was in the eyes of the HA.
The developments planned in east Devon make it all the more important that the A303/A30 route (along with the railway) gets upgraded. (And I haven't given up hope yet on that happening!) I do not believe that all the people living in new houses in and and around Hontion are going to head west to the M5 before returning to Taunton to pick up a diverted A303 from there to get to the South East.

If the Tories get into Government this year it is possible that the A303/A30 will be considered a higher priority than at present.[/quote]

I also think that the recent shelving of the A303/A358 South Petherton to Taunton dualling and a Conservative victory might bring the A303/A30 Ilminster to Honiton dualling back into consideration - it was after all towards the end of the last Conservative government that Marsh to Honiton almost went ahead (maps actually showed it as under construction) before being cancelled by Labour. The Conservatives have continued to support this scheme during their opposition, at least in the early years.

I know that total road spending is unlikely to increase with a Conservative victory. Within the total, however, I would expect the bias to move towards areas such as the South West, where there are more Conservative (and few, if any, Labour) MPs.

Don't forget that the more recent (early 2000's) A303/A30 Ilminster to Honiton dualling plans would have also included reconstruction of M5 J29, although I'm not sure of the exact plans (for the junction).
Post Reply