Catthorpe re-modelling

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
ScottB5411
Member
Posts: 4153
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:04
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ScottB5411 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 08:25

Passed yesterday going south from the M6 and work starts 10th July for 21 months. First thing to go according to signing is the M6 bridge! Could be M1S back to D3 then! Any more info out there folks?
How about some more beans Mr. Taggart?

nolandan
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:51

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by nolandan » Tue Jul 06, 2010 09:11

um, has the local inquiry even been held yet? Last I knew, it was postponed:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/network ... tM!J19.pdf

User avatar
ScottB5411
Member
Posts: 4153
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:04
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ScottB5411 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 09:41

21 months is a long time to replace a bridge......
How about some more beans Mr. Taggart?

User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8224
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by wrinkly » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:55

When the draft orders were published in February this year, it was stated that the new junction would be built in two phases, with the replacement of the existing main bridge being phase 1. This statement can be seen in this document on the project website, under the heading "Catthorpe Viaduct".

Then when the public inquiry was postponed in June, I naturally assumed that the bridge replacement would not happen for the time being, because to go ahead with it would be to partially prejudge the result of the inquiry, limiting the range of choices of layout.

There has been nothing on the DfT or HA websites to suggest that the bridge replacement would go ahead regardless.

However perhaps they've now decided that the state of the old bridge is such that it needs to go ahead anyway. I'm astonished.

It's inside the existing junction so no new land needs to be bought.

It may be that it's so close to the old bridge that it falls within the limits of deviation of the original orders, so no new orders are needed to replace the bridge. Or at least they are maybe hoping to claim that if anybody challenges it.

Maybe doubt on this point is why they've kept so quiet about it until now.

I believe the M56 J7 bridge replacement, in contrast, involves replacing that bridge on its existing alignment.

Is anyone going past Catthorpe soon? Can they get the exact wording of the signs?

User avatar
ScottB5411
Member
Posts: 4153
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:04
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ScottB5411 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:11

Catthorpe viaduct is the wording used on the signs, plus there is also cones out on the M1 hard shoulder already. I still think 21 months is a long time just to replace 1 bridge, perhaps the whole project has the green light?
How about some more beans Mr. Taggart?

User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8224
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by wrinkly » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:20

ScottB5411 wrote:perhaps the whole project has the green light?
I think that's impossible. Doubly impossible - legal reasons and financial reasons. Anyway, if the whole project was going ahead, the signs would say "M1 J19 improvement", not "Catthorpe Viaduct".

Most of the difficulty of the project will probably be traffic management.

Edit: in the March Major Schemes Tracker, the main project was down as starting Oct 2011, completion June 2014.
Last edited by wrinkly on Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ScottB5411
Member
Posts: 4153
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:04
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ScottB5411 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:30

I'm going back up in the coach again tonight so I'll have a look at the signs again unless someone beats me to it! Poss photos if i can..... edit. There are 3 signs for the works up, one for the duration and start date, another about the viaduct removal and a 3rd that i missed, all these are southbound M6.
How about some more beans Mr. Taggart?

User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3062
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by SouthWest Philip » Tue Jul 06, 2010 16:53

Am I right in thinking that the Catthorpe Junction Improvement survived the budget - possibly the only roads project to do so - with funding still in place?

I'd like to see how they're going to demolish the existing viaduct before building the new one. I guess there's going to be some pretty impressive temporary structure in it's place?

User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8224
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by wrinkly » Tue Jul 06, 2010 17:16

SouthWest Philip wrote:Am I right in thinking that the Catthorpe Junction Improvement survived the budget - possibly the only roads project to do so - with funding still in place?
I'm not aware of any reason to think that. The magnitude of cuts in individual departments' budgets such as the DfT won't be known till the autumn. The improvement was one of three English TR schemes for which the postponement of public inquiries was announced before the budget, because the DfT couldn't say when they'd be able to pay for them. In the budget speech the Chancellor mentioned a few rail projects as surviving the cuts, but no road projects as far as I know.
I'd like to see how they're going to demolish the existing viaduct before building the new one. I guess there's going to be some pretty impressive temporary structure in it's place?
The new bridge will be built just south of the existing one, traffic switched, and the existing one demolished. See map. It looks as though the tie-in to the existing Sbound M6 at the NW end of the bridge may be poorly aligned until the rest of the project is built.

User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3062
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by SouthWest Philip » Tue Jul 06, 2010 17:24

wrinkly wrote:
SouthWest Philip wrote:Am I right in thinking that the Catthorpe Junction Improvement survived the budget - possibly the only roads project to do so - with funding still in place?
I'm not aware of any reason to think that. The magnitude of cuts in individual departments' budgets such as the DfT won't be known till the autumn. The improvement was one of three English TR schemes for which the postponement of public inquiries was announced before the budget, because the DfT couldn't say when they'd be able to pay for them.
Hmm. I just had it in my mind that I'd seen it mentioned since the budget somewhere on SABRE or CBRD. Might just be my imagination!
wrinkly wrote:The new bridge will be built just south of the existing one, traffic switched, and the existing one demolished. See map.
So this new viaduct is presumably going to be much longer than the old one in order to pass over what will become the mainline of the A14/M6 through the junction? Looking at the map linked to above, it would appear that the new viaduct will have to pass over the live M6 southbound carriageway immediately west of the existing bridge. Could all make for some very interesting traffic management issues and overnight closures.

Edit - dodgy typing.
Last edited by SouthWest Philip on Tue Jul 06, 2010 17:29, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ScottB5411
Member
Posts: 4153
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:04
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ScottB5411 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 17:26

See futures on Cbrd, funding confirmed towards the end of June so it's more than likely all systems go to quote a quote :)
How about some more beans Mr. Taggart?

User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8224
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by wrinkly » Tue Jul 06, 2010 17:47

That's very interesting. There's been nothing on the DfT or HA websites as far as I know.

Unless objections have been withdrawn, this doesn't alter the fact that the public inqiry will have to happen before the full scheme can go ahead. The orders haven't been made. So I still think that what's now starting is just the bridge replacement.

I believe the crossing of the future M6-A14 mainline will be by a separate bridge. The bridge now starting will only span the M1.

Edit: There are some better maps on the project site, that can be viewed at high magnification. This one shows gantries and this one shows environmental treatment. Both show that the bridge over the M6-A14 is separate from the bridge over the M1.

User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 16341
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Truvelo » Tue Jul 06, 2010 19:02

Surely they're not going to rebuild the bridge on its current alignment? If the new junction is to be scrapped, which must be a serious possibility, then at least it won't be in vain but to spend money on something that could well be replaced a few years down the line is crazy.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.

User avatar
CJ
Member
Posts: 1922
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 20:37
Location: London

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by CJ » Tue Jul 06, 2010 19:57

No, the bridge is being rebuilt on the new alignment that it would use as part of the junction improvement plan. If the junction improvement never goes ahead then it doesn't really matter, the new bridge alignment is still perfectly fine to fit in with the existing layout.

User avatar
Achmelvic
Member
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 21:50
Location: Castleford, Yorkshire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Achmelvic » Tue Jul 06, 2010 21:51

So am I right in thinking that this new viaduct for the M6 will have to rise up before dropping down to the M1 so as to accomodate the future M6/A14 bridge over the M1? Therefore if the rest of the junction doesn't get built we'll have it going up and over nothing but grass (if that makes sense).

Is this new viaduct north or south of the existing bridge? I assume they will have to maintain an eastbound offslip down to the present mess of a junction until/if the rest of the junction is built?

User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3062
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by SouthWest Philip » Tue Jul 06, 2010 22:00

So, will this new bridge be narrower than the old bridge, i.e. two lanes instead of three?

User avatar
Haydn1971
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 14:16
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Haydn1971 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 22:35

To clarify some questions raised above, the new bridge is just the bridge over the M1 and will be just to the south of the existing one, the new bridge looks to be just two lanes wide. The second bridge or viaduct isn't required untill the M6 gets extended across to the A14, thus wouldnt be built in this current scheme, the full scheme alignment of the M6-A14 takes the M6 under the M1, thus making a three level junction and requiring a fair bit of excavation, the waste material use I suspect in building the M6 to M1 off slip up to the higher level to meet the bridge being built now.
Regards, Haydn

:: Visit My roads in Sheffield mini site
:: View my photostream on Flickr

worcsfan
Member
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:57
Location: West Bromwich

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by worcsfan » Tue Jul 06, 2010 23:15

Here's a question...

Will the new alignment mean no access to Swinford or Catthorpe villages from the A14?

If that is the case, won't the A14 become the A14[M] at least to J1?

User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8224
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by wrinkly » Tue Jul 06, 2010 23:29

If and when the whole scheme goes ahead, there will be no access between the local roads and the major routes. But there are precedents now for AP roads suddenly becoming motorways, such as at the end of the M56. Though this will be the first case where the distance between the last choice point and the start of motorway is so large - about 6 miles. Presumably there will have to be appropriate signage at the A14/A5199 junction.

User avatar
rhyds
Member
Posts: 11595
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 15:51
Location: Beautiful North Wales

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by rhyds » Tue Jul 06, 2010 23:34

Just extend the A14(M) To Glasgow :stir:
Built for comfort, not speed.

Post Reply