Catthorpe re-modelling

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KeithW
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by KeithW » Fri Jan 22, 2021 13:25

ForestChav wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.
This is not unique, it happens on the A1 in several places such as Darrington where A1 goes straight onto the A1(M)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.67953 ... authuser=0

Also the A11 and M11
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.08183 ... authuser=0

Not to mention the A2 and M2 at Rochester

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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Steven » Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:03

the cheesecake man wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:58
Big Nick wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:15
I see the problems. I've been looking at Bing which must use an older version of OS maps.
Yes it does: it still has the A14 going over Huntingdon with the new route to the south under construction, where OS Maps has been updated. But unless I want to print I usually use Bing as it's quicker than OS. This time I got caught out by out-of-date information. :oops:
Good thing SABRE Maps is always up to date! :laugh:
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44

KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 13:25
ForestChav wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.
This is not unique, it happens on the A1 in several places such as Darrington where A1 goes straight onto the A1(M)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.67953 ... authuser=0

Also the A11 and M11
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.08183 ... authuser=0

Not to mention the A2 and M2 at Rochester
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
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c2R
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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by c2R » Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:50

Steven wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:03
the cheesecake man wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:58
Big Nick wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:15
I see the problems. I've been looking at Bing which must use an older version of OS maps.
Yes it does: it still has the A14 going over Huntingdon with the new route to the south under construction, where OS Maps has been updated. But unless I want to print I usually use Bing as it's quicker than OS. This time I got caught out by out-of-date information. :oops:
Good thing SABRE Maps is always up to date! :laugh:
Or you could say up to (almost) any date, so you could try and drive the original F99 at 1922 classification, if you so wish!
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Stevie D » Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02

Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel? 🤔
a14-j1.JPG

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:07

Stevie D wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel? 🤔

a14-j1.JPG
There's still some legal headaches with this sign - whilst the TSRGD definition of said panel is "Destination panel indicating a route leading directly onto a motorway", in this case the motorway you're directly lead into is 7 miles away.

They can't use the chopsticks sign on its own, because that indicates that motorway regulations apply from this point, as per the relevant section of the RTRA 1984.

I'd love to know what design and decisions were made. The signs on the A5199 sliproad, using a blue panel in a green flag sign, are unlawful obstructions for one.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:11

Stevie D wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel? 🤔

a14-j1.JPG
Whoops, faulty memory there.
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Stevie D
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Stevie D » Fri Jan 22, 2021 18:36

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:07
There's still some legal headaches with this sign - whilst the TSRGD definition of said panel is "Destination panel indicating a route leading directly onto a motorway", in this case the motorway you're directly lead into is 7 miles away.

They can't use the chopsticks sign on its own, because that indicates that motorway regulations apply from this point, as per the relevant section of the RTRA 1984.

I'd love to know what design and decisions were made. The signs on the A5199 sliproad, using a blue panel in a green flag sign, are unlawful obstructions for one.
The thing is that while they may not be compliant, they are a good pragmatic compromise that gives drivers the information they need, like the similar signs on the A63 ELLR – following these signs to reach these destinations takes you onto a motorway to get there. It seems to me that strictly following the letter of the regulations in cases like these would lead to signage that was less useful for drivers.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by lotrjw » Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:15

Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 13:25
ForestChav wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.
This is not unique, it happens on the A1 in several places such as Darrington where A1 goes straight onto the A1(M)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.67953 ... authuser=0

Also the A11 and M11
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.08183 ... authuser=0

Not to mention the A2 and M2 at Rochester
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
It would be good to have the M6 chopsticks westbound at the A5199 junction, even if legally it was still the A14. I doubt anyone would have complained of it looking like the M6 started there, even if it actually started at the M1/M6 diverge.

lotrjw
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by lotrjw » Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:18

Stevie D wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel? 🤔

a14-j1.JPG
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 :mway: or M1 :mway: on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.

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Bryn666
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:21

lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:18
Stevie D wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel? 🤔

a14-j1.JPG
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 :mway: or M1 :mway: on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
Bryn
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She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/

lotrjw
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by lotrjw » Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:12

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:21
lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:18
Stevie D wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02

No chopsticks or big blue panel? 🤔

a14-j1.JPG
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 :mway: or M1 :mway: on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 23:24

lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:12
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:21
lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:18


Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 :mway: or M1 :mway: on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
Until some smartass came along on a forum and mounted a legal challenge.
Bryn
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lotrjw
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by lotrjw » Fri Jan 22, 2021 23:32

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 23:24
lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:12
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:21


You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
Until some smartass came along on a forum and mounted a legal challenge.
So why would people bother for just this bit of road?

mikehindsonevans
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by mikehindsonevans » Sat Jan 23, 2021 01:06

lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:15
Chris Bertram wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44
KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 13:25

This is not unique, it happens on the A1 in several places such as Darrington where A1 goes straight onto the A1(M)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.67953 ... authuser=0

Also the A11 and M11
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.08183 ... authuser=0

Not to mention the A2 and M2 at Rochester
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
It would be good to have the M6 chopsticks westbound at the A5199 junction, even if legally it was still the A14. I doubt anyone would have complained of it looking like the M6 started there, even if it actually started at the M1/M6 diverge.
I really suspect that 99 out of 100 normal road-using cats would get the message. "Beyond here, motorway only". Works for me, every time I come home from Cambridge and tick off Catthorpe as a welcome waypoint on the journey.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Ruperts Trooper » Sat Jan 23, 2021 08:38

lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:12
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 20:21
lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 19:18


Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 :mway: or M1 :mway: on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by EpicChef » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:36

Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 08:38
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
I’m often quite pedantic about this: D3 and D3M refer only to the physical road layout and not to the type of road.

The letter M means the road has a hard shoulder - it does NOT mean that it is necessarily under motorway regulations. The A2 is D4M in some places - 4 lanes and a hard shoulder.

All-lane running motorways don’t have hard shoulders so they can’t use the D4M category - so we tend to use D4ALR instead.

The A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon is a bit of a grey area. Some would say D3ALR - it has full smart motorway tech and no hard shoulder.
Others would say D3E as it was built under expressways and not as an upgrade project.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Alderpoint » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:26

Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 08:38
lotrjw wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:12
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
The Catthore/Rothwell section of the A14 is all D2.

That said there are explicit signed restrictions on use of the outerlane for certain sections (similarly on the M42).
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Ruperts Trooper » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:29

EpicChef wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:36
Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 08:38
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
I’m often quite pedantic about this: D3 and D3M refer only to the physical road layout and not to the type of road.

The letter M means the road has a hard shoulder - it does NOT mean that it is necessarily under motorway regulations. The A2 is D4M in some places - 4 lanes and a hard shoulder.

All-lane running motorways don’t have hard shoulders so they can’t use the D4M category - so we tend to use D4ALR instead.

The A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon is a bit of a grey area. Some would say D3ALR - it has full smart motorway tech and no hard shoulder.
Others would say D3E as it was built under expressways and not as an upgrade project.
Ok, I'll rephrase that "There are legal differences between a 3-lane all-purpose dual carriageway and a 3-lane motorway - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane"

It's more important to note the legal differences for drivers/vehicles than whether or not a hard-shoulder is present.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by EpicChef » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:46

Ruperts Trooper wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:29

It's more important to note the legal differences for drivers/vehicles than whether or not a hard-shoulder is present.
I’d agree on that, but it’s not me who sets these terms!
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