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ForestChav wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.
Big Nick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:15
I see the problems. I've been looking at Bing which must use an older version of OS maps.
Yes it does: it still has the A14 going over Huntingdon with the new route to the south under construction, where OS Maps has been updated. But unless I want to print I usually use Bing as it's quicker than OS. This time I got caught out by out-of-date information.
Good thing SABRE Maps is always up to date!
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ForestChav wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.
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Big Nick wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:15
I see the problems. I've been looking at Bing which must use an older version of OS maps.
Yes it does: it still has the A14 going over Huntingdon with the new route to the south under construction, where OS Maps has been updated. But unless I want to print I usually use Bing as it's quicker than OS. This time I got caught out by out-of-date information.
Good thing SABRE Maps is always up to date!
Or you could say up to (almost) any date, so you could try and drive the original F99 at 1922 classification, if you so wish!
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel?
a14-j1.JPG
There's still some legal headaches with this sign - whilst the TSRGD definition of said panel is "Destination panel indicating a route leading directly onto a motorway", in this case the motorway you're directly lead into is 7 miles away.
They can't use the chopsticks sign on its own, because that indicates that motorway regulations apply from this point, as per the relevant section of the RTRA 1984.
I'd love to know what design and decisions were made. The signs on the A5199 sliproad, using a blue panel in a green flag sign, are unlawful obstructions for one.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel?
a14-j1.JPG
Whoops, faulty memory there.
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Bryn666 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:07There's still some legal headaches with this sign - whilst the TSRGD definition of said panel is "Destination panel indicating a route leading directly onto a motorway", in this case the motorway you're directly lead into is 7 miles away.
They can't use the chopsticks sign on its own, because that indicates that motorway regulations apply from this point, as per the relevant section of the RTRA 1984.
I'd love to know what design and decisions were made. The signs on the A5199 sliproad, using a blue panel in a green flag sign, are unlawful obstructions for one.
The thing is that while they may not be compliant, they are a good pragmatic compromise that gives drivers the information they need, like the similar signs on the A63 ELLR – following these signs to reach these destinations takes you onto a motorway to get there. It seems to me that strictly following the letter of the regulations in cases like these would lead to signage that was less useful for drivers.
ForestChav wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
It would be good to have the M6 chopsticks westbound at the A5199 junction, even if legally it was still the A14. I doubt anyone would have complained of it looking like the M6 started there, even if it actually started at the M1/M6 diverge.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel?
a14-j1.JPG
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 or M1 on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 14:44The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
No chopsticks or big blue panel?
a14-j1.JPG
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 or M1 on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Stevie D wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 15:02
No chopsticks or big blue panel?
a14-j1.JPG
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 or M1 on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 or M1 on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
Until some smartass came along on a forum and mounted a legal challenge.
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
Until some smartass came along on a forum and mounted a legal challenge.
So why would people bother for just this bit of road?
The crucial difference is that the motorways start directly at those diverges - at A14 J1 the all-purpose road continues for several miles before motorway restrictions kick in. I'm aware that "Non-motorway traffic" is instructed to leave, but there are no chopsticks signs at the side of the road, nor is the ahead signage in a big blue panel to concentrate minds.
It would be good to have the M6 chopsticks westbound at the A5199 junction, even if legally it was still the A14. I doubt anyone would have complained of it looking like the M6 started there, even if it actually started at the M1/M6 diverge.
I really suspect that 99 out of 100 normal road-using cats would get the message. "Beyond here, motorway only". Works for me, every time I come home from Cambridge and tick off Catthorpe as a welcome waypoint on the journey.
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They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Thats within a green sign, it would need to have a purely blue one that just said M6 or M1 on each side of the westbound carriageway and the onslip from the A5199.
You can't though, because that sign is explicitly reserved for use on a stretch of road which motorway regulations are applied to. Which is the whole point we're discussing, the way motorways are meant to work in English law means spontaneous motorways should not be possible but here we are.
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 08:38
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
I’m often quite pedantic about this: D3 and D3M refer only to the physical road layout and not to the type of road.
The letter M means the road has a hard shoulder - it does NOT mean that it is necessarily under motorway regulations. The A2 is D4M in some places - 4 lanes and a hard shoulder.
All-lane running motorways don’t have hard shoulders so they can’t use the D4M category - so we tend to use D4ALR instead.
The A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon is a bit of a grey area. Some would say D3ALR - it has full smart motorway tech and no hard shoulder.
Others would say D3E as it was built under expressways and not as an upgrade project.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
lotrjw wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 22:12
So who would complain if they did it anyway? The average person wouldnt care and would treat it as if it actually was a motorway.
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
The Catthore/Rothwell section of the A14 is all D2.
That said there are explicit signed restrictions on use of the outerlane for certain sections (similarly on the M42).
Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 08:38
There are legal differences between D3 and D3M - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane.
I’m often quite pedantic about this: D3 and D3M refer only to the physical road layout and not to the type of road.
The letter M means the road has a hard shoulder - it does NOT mean that it is necessarily under motorway regulations. The A2 is D4M in some places - 4 lanes and a hard shoulder.
All-lane running motorways don’t have hard shoulders so they can’t use the D4M category - so we tend to use D4ALR instead.
The A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon is a bit of a grey area. Some would say D3ALR - it has full smart motorway tech and no hard shoulder.
Others would say D3E as it was built under expressways and not as an upgrade project.
Ok, I'll rephrase that "There are legal differences between a 3-lane all-purpose dual carriageway and a 3-lane motorway - speed limits for certain vehicles and use of the outermost lane"
It's more important to note the legal differences for drivers/vehicles than whether or not a hard-shoulder is present.
Ruperts Trooper wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:29
It's more important to note the legal differences for drivers/vehicles than whether or not a hard-shoulder is present.
I’d agree on that, but it’s not me who sets these terms!
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.