Catthorpe re-modelling

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roadtester
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by roadtester »

Just out of interest, is there any evidence that a single motorist not qualified to use a motorway has actually ended up on the M6?
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Berk »

All the same, this is not how motorways are usually designed, or authorised.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

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roadtester wrote:Just out of interest, is there any evidence that a single motorist not qualified to use a motorway has actually ended up on the M6?
Not that I know of, but it's a good time for a reminder that zero cyclists have been observed using the road since records began. That's before the escape route closed.

Also, it's too late for me to think about it now, but we really ought to have the Catthorpe FAQs on the wiki. 'Where does the motorway begin?', 'why not J1?', 'what about the pedestrian crossing?', 'is this unique?'.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Derek »

For motorists the scheme’s completion means:
they no longer have to navigate a junction travelling between the M6 and A14
Er... Yes they do!

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Glom »

Only in the sense of passing through a junction is navigating it.

It's a legitimate point that moving between A14 and M6 is now as simple as continuing on those roads at the junctions either side.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A9NWIL »

I have just looked on Google maps at Catthorpe junction: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40467 ... a=!3m1!1e3 and they have finally got it right!
Obviously they have yet to get the street view right, but the map data being right is a start.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Berk »

lotrjw wrote:I have just looked on Google maps at Catthorpe junction: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.40467 ... a=!3m1!1e3 and they have finally got it right!
Obviously they have yet to get the street view right, but the map data being right is a start.
StreetView is always a work in progress. It took a very long time to get the A14-M6 throughpass on there, even though that was the first bit to be finished. But it is on there now. Just waiting for the motorway slips now.

As for the LAR, your guess is as good as mine. I notice Google did a partial rerun last summer on what you might call rural 'main roads' (i.e. detrunked/ex-HA routes), as well as to some larger villages. But as for suburbs and side streets, still look like they did in 2007/8/9. By contrast, city centres and arterial roads usually get a visit once a year.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by roadtester »

A sign question thrown up by the Catthorpe changes.

On the M6 south/eastbound some miles before Catthorpe, there has for some time - I don't know how long - been a sign that reads "Services 17m".

The reference was clearly to Watford Gap on the M1, and although I always thought it anomalous that this sign didn't mention that these services were actually on another motorway, it still made sense given that the M6 flowed straight into the M1 going south.

But now, even though the M1 is clearly the more important road, the M6 flows straight ahead on to the A14 and you "turn off" to join the M1.

Surely now there is scope for confusion, and some motorists might assume that the sign is a reference to services on the A14 rather than the M1? Surely at the very least the sign should read something like "Services (M1 Southbound) 17m"?
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A9NWIL »

roadtester wrote:A sign question thrown up by the Catthorpe changes.

On the M6 south/eastbound some miles before Catthorpe, there has for some time - I don't know how long - been a sign that reads "Services 17m".

The reference was clearly to Watford Gap on the M1, and although I always thought it anomalous that this sign didn't mention that these services were actually on another motorway, it still made sense given that the M6 flowed straight into the M1 going south.

But now, even though the M1 is clearly the more important road, the M6 flows straight ahead on to the A14 and you "turn off" to join the M1.

Surely now there is scope for confusion, and some motorists might assume that the sign is a reference to services on the A14 rather than the M1? Surely at the very least the sign should read something like "Services (M1 Southbound) 17m"?
I agree but why would the word southbound be needed? you cant currently get to the M1 northbound direct from the M6 at Catthorpe.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by roadtester »

lotrjw wrote:
roadtester wrote:Surely now there is scope for confusion, and some motorists might assume that the sign is a reference to services on the A14 rather than the M1? Surely at the very least the sign should read something like "Services (M1 Southbound) 17m"?
I agree but why would the word southbound be needed? you cant currently get to the M1 northbound direct from the M6 at Catthorpe.
Ah yes - good point.

And perhaps include a reference to the first services on the A14 as well - there's actually quite a long gap between Corley on the M6 and the first opportunity to stop on the A14 - I make it a 33.6 mile gap (it's 37.7 miles westbound) - so some sort of warning at some stage on the M6 might be an idea.

Also, I wonder if anyone has ever looked at getting some services on the A14 closer to the M6 - the rest of the A14 is actually fairly well provided for over most of the rest of its length.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

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roadtester wrote:Ah yes - good point.

And perhaps include a reference to the first services on the A14 as well - there's actually quite a long gap between Corley on the M6 and the first opportunity to stop on the A14 - I make it a 33.6 mile gap (it's 37.7 miles westbound) - so some sort of warning at some stage on the M6 might be an idea.

Also, I wonder if anyone has ever looked at getting some services on the A14 closer to the M6 - the rest of the A14 is actually fairly well provided for over most of the rest of its length.
Are you forgetting about Rothwell Services? That's on the A14 and less than 20 miles from the M6 (being accessed via J5). IIRC it's only signposted eastbound, though (although you can access it westbound by doing U-turns via J4 and J6, both of which are very close).

Meanwhile, I went and had a look at the local roads through Catthorpe Interchange. As far as I can tell, the whole thing is finished now. The M1 underbridge, which used to carry the dumbbells, is still very recognisable (although the carriageway has been reduced to S2 width, giving the rest of the width to pedestrians, rather than the old S2+1). Meanwhile, the reason for the asymmetrical bridges for the local road under the M6→A14 and M6→M1 links I mentioned earlier is very clear when seen from the opposite angle:
catthorpe-bridges.jpg
The bridge under the viaduct is much larger, but it's because the viaduct is sloping upwards (to get above the height of the M1) and thus is supported by occasional pillars, whereas the "straight on" is sloping downwards (to get below the height of the M1) and is supported mostly under the ground. So the M6 has the smallest possible tunnel dug out underneath it to save costs, and the viaduct would have huge spaces beneath it even if there weren't a road there.

There's also a fact that might be interested to the "where will all the poor cyclists go?" thread. This is what the emergency access between the A14 and the local roads looks like:
catthorpe-access.jpg
As far as I can tell, it's legal for a pedestrian, bicycle or horse to use that access road; that's definitely a "no motor vehicles" sign, not a "no vehicles" sign. Whether it's physically possible is another matter (as you'd have to cart your bicycle across the A14's central reservation and then two fences), but I don't see a legal problem here.

I also passed near the A5199 turnoff whose signage has been debated so much in this thread. I was turning left from the A5199 southbound onto the A14 eastbound, so didn't really get a good view (and especially, not good enough to take a photo), but as far as I could tell, the ADS for the right turn from the A5199 southbound to the A14 westbound did nothing to discourage non-motorway traffic; it was green-panelled with blue patches for the motorways, didn't mention a chopsticks sign anywhere, and didn't mention "non-motorway traffic", with the A14 being given as the main destination for the right turn. (In other words, no real hint that you have no option other than the motorways, and the aforementioned access road obstacle course.)

From the SABRE Wiki: Rothwell Lodge Junction :

Rothwell Lodge Junction is Junction 5 of the A14. It is a junction serving a farm and Rothwell services, a leftover from the original A6 dual carriageway that the A14 took over.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

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ais523 wrote:
roadtester wrote:Ah yes - good point.

And perhaps include a reference to the first services on the A14 as well - there's actually quite a long gap between Corley on the M6 and the first opportunity to stop on the A14 - I make it a 33.6 mile gap (it's 37.7 miles westbound) - so some sort of warning at some stage on the M6 might be an idea.

Also, I wonder if anyone has ever looked at getting some services on the A14 closer to the M6 - the rest of the A14 is actually fairly well provided for over most of the rest of its length.
Are you forgetting about Rothwell Services? That's on the A14 and less than 20 miles from the M6 (being accessed via J5). IIRC it's only signposted eastbound, though (although you can access it westbound by doing U-turns via J4 and J6, both of which are very close).
Yes, it's Rothwell I'm talking about (at least going eastbound) - it may be only twenty miles from the M6 but my 33.6 miles is the distance from Corley, the last services on the M6.

The westbound distance to Corley is from the services where the Travelodge is (can't find a name for it, though - Kettering West?).

From the SABRE Wiki: Rothwell Lodge Junction :

Rothwell Lodge Junction is Junction 5 of the A14. It is a junction serving a farm and Rothwell services, a leftover from the original A6 dual carriageway that the A14 took over.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 »

I thought the services signs east of Corley had been amended in 1994 to say M1... albeit very badly. If that's changed it's a cock up.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A9NWIL »

ais523 wrote:
roadtester wrote:Ah yes - good point.

And perhaps include a reference to the first services on the A14 as well - there's actually quite a long gap between Corley on the M6 and the first opportunity to stop on the A14 - I make it a 33.6 mile gap (it's 37.7 miles westbound) - so some sort of warning at some stage on the M6 might be an idea.

Also, I wonder if anyone has ever looked at getting some services on the A14 closer to the M6 - the rest of the A14 is actually fairly well provided for over most of the rest of its length.
Are you forgetting about Rothwell Services? That's on the A14 and less than 20 miles from the M6 (being accessed via J5). IIRC it's only signposted eastbound, though (although you can access it westbound by doing U-turns via J4 and J6, both of which are very close).

Meanwhile, I went and had a look at the local roads through Catthorpe Interchange. As far as I can tell, the whole thing is finished now. The M1 underbridge, which used to carry the dumbbells, is still very recognisable (although the carriageway has been reduced to S2 width, giving the rest of the width to pedestrians, rather than the old S2+1). Meanwhile, the reason for the asymmetrical bridges for the local road under the M6→A14 and M6→M1 links I mentioned earlier is very clear when seen from the opposite angle:

catthorpe-bridges.jpg

The bridge under the viaduct is much larger, but it's because the viaduct is sloping upwards (to get above the height of the M1) and thus is supported by occasional pillars, whereas the "straight on" is sloping downwards (to get below the height of the M1) and is supported mostly under the ground. So the M6 has the smallest possible tunnel dug out underneath it to save costs, and the viaduct would have huge spaces beneath it even if there weren't a road there.

There's also a fact that might be interested to the "where will all the poor cyclists go?" thread. This is what the emergency access between the A14 and the local roads looks like:

catthorpe-access.jpg

As far as I can tell, it's legal for a pedestrian, bicycle or horse to use that access road; that's definitely a "no motor vehicles" sign, not a "no vehicles" sign. Whether it's physically possible is another matter (as you'd have to cart your bicycle across the A14's central reservation and then two fences), but I don't see a legal problem here.

I also passed near the A5199 turnoff whose signage has been debated so much in this thread. I was turning left from the A5199 southbound onto the A14 eastbound, so didn't really get a good view (and especially, not good enough to take a photo), but as far as I could tell, the ADS for the right turn from the A5199 southbound to the A14 westbound did nothing to discourage non-motorway traffic; it was green-panelled with blue patches for the motorways, didn't mention a chopsticks sign anywhere, and didn't mention "non-motorway traffic", with the A14 being given as the main destination for the right turn. (In other words, no real hint that you have no option other than the motorways, and the aforementioned access road obstacle course.)
That access to the local road network is within the section thats already under motorway restrictions, so cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders, all of which would be stupid to use that part of the A14, wouldnt legally be allowed there anyway. In fact you could go so far as to say its actually the M6 by that point!
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From the SABRE Wiki: Rothwell Lodge Junction :

Rothwell Lodge Junction is Junction 5 of the A14. It is a junction serving a farm and Rothwell services, a leftover from the original A6 dual carriageway that the A14 took over.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A43Corby »

Bryn666 wrote:I thought the services signs east of Corley had been amended in 1994 to say M1... albeit very badly. If that's changed it's a cock up.
There's this one between J3 and J2: https://goo.gl/maps/L59Uis2M7vE2?

And this one just east of J2: https://goo.gl/maps/imqjG3QBkvq

They had done this east of J1: https://goo.gl/maps/H3tmqr7E5QR2

But there's always a chance they might have been changed since Streetview was last updated. A bit like the pedestrian crossing that still persists just east of the point where the A14 becomes the M6 and the defacto 30 MPH speed limit that still exists on the lit section of the A14 thanks to the lack of NSL roundels!
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by M19 »

Rothwell services. I can nearly see it from my house. At least the Maccy D totem sign.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

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A43Corby wrote:
There's this one between J3 and J2: https://goo.gl/maps/L59Uis2M7vE2?

And this one just east of J2: https://goo.gl/maps/imqjG3QBkvq

They had done this east of J1: https://goo.gl/maps/H3tmqr7E5QR2

But there's always a chance they might have been changed since Streetview was last updated. A bit like the pedestrian crossing that still persists just east of the point where the A14 becomes the M6 and the defacto 30 MPH speed limit that still exists on the lit section of the A14 thanks to the lack of NSL roundels!
That middle one is the one I was talking about in initiating this part of the discussion - it's still like that (or it was on Sunday).
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Big L »

I must say it was nice to hurtle at 70 westbound through the junction on Sunday evening.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

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I visited the area the weekend before last but didn't get round to posting about it until now.

The advance signage on the A5199 approaching the A14 from north or south is now pretty much as if the motorway regulations started at that junction. There are blue panels naming the M1 and M6 (numbers probably in brackets but I forget) but the A14 is not mentioned in the westward direction.

If I remember correctly the flag-type signs pointing along the westbound on-slip are blue insets on a green ground.

On the A14 mainline westbound there are (as the video posted some time ago shows) no longer any signs (like the former yellow ones) instructing non-motorway traffic to pull in at a layby. The emergency connections to the local roads are closed off by gates at the minor road end.

Eastbound the sign about pedestrians crossing is still there. I think I'll email HE about that. Was there ever a westbound one?

The M6-to-M1 link, according to its DLSs, changes its name part way along from being M6 B to M1 M. Similarly the M1-to-M6 link changes midway from M1 J to M6 A. All other links in the junction have single names.

The southbound M1 has been temporarily reduced to two lanes through the junction for the approach to the smartification works to the south. IIRC think narrowing of the lanes has also been reintroduced there.
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