Catthorpe re-modelling

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
thatapanydude
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 21:35
Location: Bedfordshire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by thatapanydude »

I actually echo some of the comment to extend the A14 to the A5 for more reasons that just tidying up the non-motorway regulation issues. This also helps with access from the A14 to M1 South and it can be done easily via an old railway bridge under the M1.

Road is only 2 miles or so of S2 and helps access to the distribution centres taking HGVs off the M1, M6 at pinch points.
Attachments
A14 ext to A5.gif
A1/A1(M) >>> M1
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ManomayLR »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 15:28 I actually echo some of the comment to extend the A14 to the A5 for more reasons that just tidying up the non-motorway regulation issues. This also helps with access from the A14 to M1 South and it can be done easily via an old railway bridge under the M1.

Road is only 2 miles or so of S2 and helps access to the distribution centres taking HGVs off the M1, M6 at pinch points.
We can have a D3M A14 (previously M6) and it really won't do much.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
ais523
Member
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 19:52
Location: Birmingham

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ais523 »

B1040 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 22:09 So, do we know if there have been significant problems with non motorway traffic heading from J1 to J0 and getting stuck?
It sometimes feels as if we're fretting about a problem that probably doesn't exist.
My guess is that there wouldn't be; A14 J0-1 is not the sort of road that non-motorway traffic would want to go down.

The only figures I've seen in this respect were the traffic counts from before the upgrade, where the AADT for cyclists on A14 J1-0 was 0 for every year for which records were available. Those figures are rounded, so it doesn't necessarily mean that there were no cyclists, but it does imply an average of fewer than 1 cyclist attempting to use the stretch of road in question every 2 days. If the number of cyclists that were trying to use the road at the time when they had a legal exit from it is that low, the number of cyclists trying to use it nowadays is highly likely to be negligible/zero.

The only sort of non-motorway traffic that I'd expect could manage to make the journey down to A14 J0 is learner drivers without dual controls, and possibly mopeds. It would be a long, long distance on a busy D2 to cycle, or walk, or ride a horse. (Even then, I think you could make a plausible argument that most non-motorway traffic could simply just climb/jump over the fence blocking the emergency access sliproads; the sign on them is a "no motor vehicles" sign, after all. So it's motorised non-motorway traffic that would be in the most trouble upon reaching the junction.)
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by KeithW »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 15:28 I actually echo some of the comment to extend the A14 to the A5 for more reasons that just tidying up the non-motorway regulation issues. This also helps with access from the A14 to M1 South and it can be done easily via an old railway bridge under the M1.

Road is only 2 miles or so of S2 and helps access to the distribution centres taking HGVs off the M1, M6 at pinch points.
If people missed the signs at J1 what makes you sure they wouldn't do the same here ?

In any case this junction is way overengineered for a simple escape road and t0o close to J0 to be regular junction. a simple slip down to Yelvertoft Road would do.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ManomayLR »

ais523 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:24
B1040 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 22:09 So, do we know if there have been significant problems with non motorway traffic heading from J1 to J0 and getting stuck?
It sometimes feels as if we're fretting about a problem that probably doesn't exist.
My guess is that there wouldn't be; A14 J0-1 is not the sort of road that non-motorway traffic would want to go down.

The only figures I've seen in this respect were the traffic counts from before the upgrade, where the AADT for cyclists on A14 J1-0 was 0 for every year for which records were available. Those figures are rounded, so it doesn't necessarily mean that there were no cyclists, but it does imply an average of fewer than 1 cyclist attempting to use the stretch of road in question every 2 days. If the number of cyclists that were trying to use the road at the time when they had a legal exit from it is that low, the number of cyclists trying to use it nowadays is highly likely to be negligible/zero.

The only sort of non-motorway traffic that I'd expect could manage to make the journey down to A14 J0 is learner drivers without dual controls, and possibly mopeds. It would be a long, long distance on a busy D2 to cycle, or walk, or ride a horse. (Even then, I think you could make a plausible argument that most non-motorway traffic could simply just climb/jump over the fence blocking the emergency access sliproads; the sign on them is a "no motor vehicles" sign, after all. So it's motorised non-motorway traffic that would be in the most trouble upon reaching the junction.)
If a learner without dual controls were to stop in a layby, remove L-plates, and then drive to the next exit off the M1 or M6, do you think they’d get away with it?
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
ais523
Member
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 19:52
Location: Birmingham

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ais523 »

EpicChef wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 16:34If a learner without dual controls were to stop in a layby, remove L-plates, and then drive to the next exit off the M1 or M6, do you think they’d get away with it?
If the learner is alert enough to stop in a lay-by before reaching the junction, they have a legal way to escape: simply swap places with the driver who's supervising them.
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A9NWIL »

EpicChef wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 16:34
ais523 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:24
B1040 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 22:09 So, do we know if there have been significant problems with non motorway traffic heading from J1 to J0 and getting stuck?
It sometimes feels as if we're fretting about a problem that probably doesn't exist.
My guess is that there wouldn't be; A14 J0-1 is not the sort of road that non-motorway traffic would want to go down.

The only figures I've seen in this respect were the traffic counts from before the upgrade, where the AADT for cyclists on A14 J1-0 was 0 for every year for which records were available. Those figures are rounded, so it doesn't necessarily mean that there were no cyclists, but it does imply an average of fewer than 1 cyclist attempting to use the stretch of road in question every 2 days. If the number of cyclists that were trying to use the road at the time when they had a legal exit from it is that low, the number of cyclists trying to use it nowadays is highly likely to be negligible/zero.

The only sort of non-motorway traffic that I'd expect could manage to make the journey down to A14 J0 is learner drivers without dual controls, and possibly mopeds. It would be a long, long distance on a busy D2 to cycle, or walk, or ride a horse. (Even then, I think you could make a plausible argument that most non-motorway traffic could simply just climb/jump over the fence blocking the emergency access sliproads; the sign on them is a "no motor vehicles" sign, after all. So it's motorised non-motorway traffic that would be in the most trouble upon reaching the junction.)
If a learner without dual controls were to stop in a layby, remove L-plates, and then drive to the next exit off the M1 or M6, do you think they’d get away with it?
Probably, it would depend how advanced in their training they are. What would be better is a driver swap with the supervising driver taking over for that short distance, as long as they are insured. Although the learner wouldnt technically be insured to drive on the motorway anyway, so if the supervising driver isnt insured on the vehicle or hasnt got comprehensive able to drive other vehicles on another vehicle, then they are screwed either way.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A9NWIL »

ais523 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:30
EpicChef wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 16:34If a learner without dual controls were to stop in a layby, remove L-plates, and then drive to the next exit off the M1 or M6, do you think they’d get away with it?
If the learner is alert enough to stop in a lay-by before reaching the junction, they have a legal way to escape: simply swap places with the driver who's supervising them.
Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
User avatar
orudge
Site Manager
Posts: 8261
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:23
Location: Banchory
Contact:

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by orudge »

Although I haven’t looked up the law, the RAC at least suggests that anyone supervising a learner driver needs appropriate insurance (I suspect in most cases it’ll be the supervisor’s car and the learner would have additional insurance or be added to the supervisor’s policy).
User avatar
Truvelo
Member
Posts: 17467
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 21:10
Location: Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Truvelo »

If the learner's car being driven is shown as being taxed and insured on the police computer there will be little chance of being stopped if the L plates are removed. If the L plates are left on it will attract attention.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 »

thatapanydude wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 15:28 I actually echo some of the comment to extend the A14 to the A5 for more reasons that just tidying up the non-motorway regulation issues. This also helps with access from the A14 to M1 South and it can be done easily via an old railway bridge under the M1.

Road is only 2 miles or so of S2 and helps access to the distribution centres taking HGVs off the M1, M6 at pinch points.
Locals on and around the A5 didn't want a link of this type. So why would we waste millions building one?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Patrick Harper
Member
Posts: 3202
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 14:41
Location: Wiltshire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Patrick Harper »

Or just slap a motorway (to current design standards, i.e no hard shoulders) on the A14 as far as the first all-purpose junction east of Catthorpe.
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8738
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by trickstat »

lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32
ais523 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:30
EpicChef wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 16:34If a learner without dual controls were to stop in a layby, remove L-plates, and then drive to the next exit off the M1 or M6, do you think they’d get away with it?
If the learner is alert enough to stop in a lay-by before reaching the junction, they have a legal way to escape: simply swap places with the driver who's supervising them.
Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
I would have thought that it is more likely than not that they are insured. The supervising driver is most likely to be a parent or a friend who owns the car or an instructor. I think only the very well-off learn to drive in a car they own themselves.
Andy33gmail
Member
Posts: 3943
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 09:26
Location: Littleport, Ely, Cambridge

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Andy33gmail »

lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32 Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
Out of interest, are they any other scenarios where someone can be fit to supervise but not drive a specific vehicle?

IIRC you can’t be on a phone, over the limit etc.
User avatar
Stevie D
Member
Posts: 8000
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:19
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Stevie D »

lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
A supervising driver should always be insured to drive the vehicle.
User avatar
Ruperts Trooper
Member
Posts: 12031
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 13:43
Location: Huntingdonshire originally, but now Staffordshire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Stevie D wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 09:16
lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
A supervising driver should always be insured to drive the vehicle.
It's not a legal requirement https://www.gov.uk/driving-lessons-lear ... or-friends
Lifelong motorhead
User avatar
Stevie D
Member
Posts: 8000
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 17:19
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Stevie D »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 09:37
Stevie D wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 09:16
lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
A supervising driver should always be insured to drive the vehicle.
It's not a legal requirement https://www.gov.uk/driving-lessons-lear ... or-friends
No, it's not a legal requirement, which is why I said "should" rather than "must" – doesn't change the fact that it's a bad idea to have a supervising driver who is not able to drive the car if required.
A9NWIL
Member
Posts: 3319
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 02:36

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A9NWIL »

trickstat wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 22:53
lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32
ais523 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:30

If the learner is alert enough to stop in a lay-by before reaching the junction, they have a legal way to escape: simply swap places with the driver who's supervising them.
Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
I would have thought that it is more likely than not that they are insured. The supervising driver is most likely to be a parent or a friend who owns the car or an instructor. I think only the very well-off learn to drive in a car they own themselves.
I can tell you for sure as someone who isnt well off, I learned in my own car, so this was definitely an issue for me. I made sure that whoever was with me was either insured through their own insurance or through mine.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
User avatar
trickstat
Member
Posts: 8738
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 14:06
Location: Letchworth Gdn City, Herts

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by trickstat »

lotrjw wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 14:21
trickstat wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 22:53
lotrjw wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 18:32

Only if the supervising driver is somehow insured to drive that vehicle.
I would have thought that it is more likely than not that they are insured. The supervising driver is most likely to be a parent or a friend who owns the car or an instructor. I think only the very well-off learn to drive in a car they own themselves.
I can tell you for sure as someone who isnt well off, I learned in my own car, so this was definitely an issue for me. I made sure that whoever was with me was either insured through their own insurance or through mine.
That is definitely very much advisable.

To clarify, it just strikes me as a relatively unlikely scenario that a learner would be driving a road like the A14 to gain experience of a non-urban DC in a car that the person accompanying them is not insured to drive. Of course, you do get occasional incidents of foolish behaviour on our roads which go well beyond that.
User avatar
solocle
Member
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 18:27

Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 21:12
Truvelo wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 21:02 I'm sure links to the local road network were removed to avoid ratrunning. Villages such as Swinford had plenty of traffic zooming through them prior to the junction being rebuilt. What I do agree with is a simple exit slip from the westbound A14 to allow prohibited traffic an escape route should it have continued past J1. Without an equivalent eastbound entry slip it would go some way to mitigating the effects of ratrunning.
There is an authorised vehicles only slip road for these eventualities. It's also where Mr Plod can give you a fine for ignoring the Section 36 traffic sign saying start of motorway 200 yards prior.

There's enough warning on the westbound A14 even if it's unlawful and stupid signage.
Well, that's not quite accurate. You've got a "no motor vehicles except authorised vehicles" access, so an errant cyclist can legally make their escape after passing the chopsticks. More concerning is the fact that the signage on the other end of these slip roads seems to be exactly the same. I.e. a cyclist can be riding along an all purpose road, proceed past only a no motors sign, and end up on the motorway.

I presume that therefore, while it would still be illegal, it would be unenforceable. And this applies to both the M1 and the M6!
Last edited by solocle on Mon May 10, 2021 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply