Catthorpe re-modelling

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by EpicChef » Tue Jan 19, 2021 20:14

Posts from the LTC thread about the A14 at Catthorpe have been moved here.
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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by A43Corby » Wed Jan 20, 2021 16:22

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 15:37
Alderpoint wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 15:01
Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 13:22
It also would require several footpaths that cross it on the level to be diverted, and HE don't like doing that unless they absolutely have to. Or if they can get a poncey architect to come up with a completely OTT 'signature' footbridge in a rural setting when a simple bridge would achieve the same result, that is usually the fastest way to do it.
There are no footpaths (or bridleways) across the section of the A14 between the M1 and J1/A5199 - the few near the M1 junction were all removed/rerouted when Catthorpe was rebuilt.

Indeed I can't find any all the way to Rothwell.
Excellent, I thought they'd left those in. In that case there's really nothing preventing extending motorway regulations eastwards other than lack of political will and legislative knowledge to grasp how motorways are supposed to work.
I usually drive along there 2-3 times a week and admit I haven't done so for a couple of months thanks to COVID but I'm reasonably certain that the pedestrian crossing between Catthorpe and A14 J1 is still there.

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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Alderpoint » Wed Jan 20, 2021 16:33

A43Corby wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 16:22
I usually drive along there 2-3 times a week and admit I haven't done so for a couple of months thanks to COVID but I'm reasonably certain that the pedestrian crossing between Catthorpe and A14 J1 is still there.
Well I've driven that road many times since before Catthorpe was redesigned and the one pedestrian crossing and one bridleway crossing which did exist were diverted and/or stopped up. I've also biked and walked many of the paths and tracks around there, before and after the improvments and there are none remaining accessible or permitted. If you examine any up to date mapping, whether crowd-sourced such as OpenStreetMap and official Ordnance Survey mapping at both 1:50,000 and 1:25,000 scale, then there are no paths crossing this road.

This has been discussed many times in the past on here (although I can't be bothered to look that hard), and no one has even been able to point to evidence that such a crossing still exists. Please feel happy to treat that as a challenge.
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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Alderpoint » Wed Jan 20, 2021 16:40

KeithW wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 23:44
The lack of a suitable alternative route on what is an all purpose road is what prevents it becoming a motorway. The road between J2 and the A6 has been all purpose since the A14 was extended from Kettering to Catthorpe, the A14 east to the A1 was formerly the A604 and has always been All Purpose. The reality is that there are lot of farms along that section who's only access is via the A14, get the money to build an LAR and then you can look at introducing motorway regulations.
There are no farm access anywhere along the (newly constructed) section of the A14 between the M1/M6 and Rothwell. This was a brand new purpose built dual carriageway and not an upgrade to an existing road - no farm access pre-existed and no new ones were built.

East of Rothwell, then yes there are sorts of access which preclude motorway regs being added - but noone has been suggesting that.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by JohnA14J50 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 17:56

Could this situation result in HE getting sued somehow?
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by EpicChef » Wed Jan 20, 2021 18:03

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 17:56
Could this situation result in HE getting sued somehow?
I wouldn’t count on it.
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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Big Nick » Wed Jan 20, 2021 19:24

Alderpoint wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 16:33
A43Corby wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 16:22
I usually drive along there 2-3 times a week and admit I haven't done so for a couple of months thanks to COVID but I'm reasonably certain that the pedestrian crossing between Catthorpe and A14 J1 is still there.
Well I've driven that road many times since before Catthorpe was redesigned and the one pedestrian crossing and one bridleway crossing which did exist were diverted and/or stopped up. I've also biked and walked many of the paths and tracks around there, before and after the improvments and there are none remaining accessible or permitted. If you examine any up to date mapping, whether crowd-sourced such as OpenStreetMap and official Ordnance Survey mapping at both 1:50,000 and 1:25,000 scale, then there are no paths crossing this road.

This has been discussed many times in the past on here (although I can't be bothered to look that hard), and no one has even been able to point to evidence that such a crossing still exists. Please feel happy to treat that as a challenge.
It is interesting to look at current OS maps and see the footpaths leading from Swinford simply stop at the edge of the Motorway (whichever number it is), then continue on the other side. I expect that people may walk down there and then hop hedges to get to the underpass by the River Avon.
It seems rather shortsighted to stop up these paths and provide no sensible alternative crossing.

I now feel a desire to go for a long walk up there when the weather is warmer and further travel is allowed. :D

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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by the cheesecake man » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:40

Big Nick wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 19:24
It seems rather shortsighted to stop up these paths and provide no sensible alternative crossing.
Even stranger when those footpaths have a subway provided under the M1.

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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Big Nick » Thu Jan 21, 2021 14:10

the cheesecake man wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:40
Big Nick wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 19:24
It seems rather shortsighted to stop up these paths and provide no sensible alternative crossing.
Even stranger when those footpaths have a subway provided under the M1.
Don't be fooled by that. It's not a subway, it's a very large bridge that covers the River Avon, the Rugby-Market Harborough railway and a farm access track on which the footpath steps briefly.

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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by KeithW » Thu Jan 21, 2021 14:40

Big Nick wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 19:24
It is interesting to look at current OS maps and see the footpaths leading from Swinford simply stop at the edge of the Motorway (whichever number it is), then continue on the other side. I expect that people may walk down there and then hop hedges to get to the underpass by the River Avon.
It seems rather shortsighted to stop up these paths and provide no sensible alternative crossing.

I now feel a desire to go for a long walk up there when the weather is warmer and further travel is allowed. :D
If you look at the Ordance Survey Modern Layer in Sabre Maps you can see the modified routes from Swinford pass under the A14 along the bank of the River Avon

Here is the local press coverage
https://rugbyobserver.co.uk/news/shorter-safer-motorway-journeys-promised-as-catthorpe-interchange-revamp-officially-opens/ wrote: And for the first time in over 20 years local traffic, pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders are separated from long-distance traffic, particularly HGVs.

Highways England has also created a new public right of way/bridleway between Swinford and Catthorpe, a footway alongside the new local road between Swinford and Catthorpe and a new footpath to the north of the A14, as well as areas for wildlife and trees.
Its also shown on Google Maps
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Swi ... authuser=0

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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Alderpoint » Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:03

Big Nick wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 19:24
It is interesting to look at current OS maps and see the footpaths leading from Swinford simply stop at the edge of the Motorway (whichever number it is),
You are not looking at the "current OS maps". Looking on Streetmap (which is more uptodate than Magic), at both 1:25000 and 1:50000 the footpaths south of Swinford only go as far as the Motorway and then go alongside the motorway to the underbridge shared with the river and a bridleway.
then continue on the other side.
No, they have gone.

https://www.streetmap.co.uk/idld.srf?x= ... 79500&lm=0
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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by Big Nick » Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:15

KeithW wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 14:40
If you look at the Ordance Survey Modern Layer in Sabre Maps you can see the modified routes from Swinford pass under the A14 along the bank of the River Avon

Here is the local press coverage
https://rugbyobserver.co.uk/news/shorter-safer-motorway-journeys-promised-as-catthorpe-interchange-revamp-officially-opens/ wrote: And for the first time in over 20 years local traffic, pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders are separated from long-distance traffic, particularly HGVs.

Highways England has also created a new public right of way/bridleway between Swinford and Catthorpe, a footway alongside the new local road between Swinford and Catthorpe and a new footpath to the north of the A14, as well as areas for wildlife and trees.
Its also shown on Google Maps
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Swi ... authuser=0
That's a very interesting article, thank you.

I see the problems. I've been looking at Bing which must use an older version of OS maps. Google Maps needs the footpaths revising and a new drive-by in the camera car.
Sabre Maps version of OS doesn't show any of the access roads to the junction, is that intentional by OS?

The access road from Rugby Road to the A14 eastbound is not shown on OS maps. Next to it on aerial photos is what looks like a footpath within the new motorway boundary leading to Footpath X8. I'd like to check that out one day.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by JohnA14J50 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50

Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?

How is local opinion on the change?
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 16:00

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50
Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?

How is local opinion on the change?
They never had direct access to the M1 south anyway, and to get to the M1 north involved making one of the most stupidly designed right turns in the country across the A14 to M6 movement.

The village will be massively quieter now all the DIRFT traffic isn't shortcutting through it, so overall a massive benefit to residents. The only people who 'lose' are those that think their 'right to drive' everywhere trumps all else.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 16:39

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 16:00
JohnA14J50 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50
Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?

How is local opinion on the change?
They never had direct access to the M1 south anyway, and to get to the M1 north involved making one of the most stupidly designed right turns in the country across the A14 to M6 movement.

The village will be massively quieter now all the DIRFT traffic isn't shortcutting through it, so overall a massive benefit to residents. The only people who 'lose' are those that think their 'right to drive' everywhere trumps all else.
Bryn, that's a bit gratuitous and somewhat unfair. There are losers, albeit rather few, and they are those who live in Catthorpe and Swinford who now have to go a longer way round to reach the motorways and A14. Maybe they consider having quieter villages a price worth paying, maybe not, and perhaps opinions vary. But we won't know unless we ask them, and I venture to suggest that you haven't, any more than I have.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by nowster » Thu Jan 21, 2021 17:17

Their access to the M6/M1/A14 was a consequence of the bodge of re-using the local road underpass through the junction for the squashabout that joined the whole thing together. They had no access before 1994.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 17:20

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 16:39
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 16:00
JohnA14J50 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50
Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?

How is local opinion on the change?
They never had direct access to the M1 south anyway, and to get to the M1 north involved making one of the most stupidly designed right turns in the country across the A14 to M6 movement.

The village will be massively quieter now all the DIRFT traffic isn't shortcutting through it, so overall a massive benefit to residents. The only people who 'lose' are those that think their 'right to drive' everywhere trumps all else.
Bryn, that's a bit gratuitous and somewhat unfair. There are losers, albeit rather few, and they are those who live in Catthorpe and Swinford who now have to go a longer way round to reach the motorways and A14. Maybe they consider having quieter villages a price worth paying, maybe not, and perhaps opinions vary. But we won't know unless we ask them, and I venture to suggest that you haven't, any more than I have.
Data from the then HA suggested 1 vehicle per minute made the movement from M6 to M1 north.

At the public inquiry, no representations were made about loss of motorway access by villagers from Catthorpe or Swinford - which if it was a wider village concern it would have been. Representations were made about a full access motorway to motorway junction, and how HGVs would reach some existing businesses. Other complaints were loss of usable access for a HGV park. Bearing in mind the old roads had 7.5t weight limits except for access, providing a modern DMRB compliant HGV route for two businesses would be completely counter-intuitive to the scheme objective.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... report.pdf

I think the case for the prosecution rests. The rat-runners were discounted and the local road network was returned to being for locals.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:43

That's as maybe. But once again you trot out the tired old cliché "entitled". We have the concept in this country of the public highway, which *anyone* is, in fact, entitled to use unless restrictions forbid it. And in motor vehicles, possession of a licence is an *earned* entitlement to use a vehicle that you are qualified to drive on said highway, whatever you think of the overall standard of drivers in the UK.

Be careful about sneering at entitlements, lest you find them removed from you when you least want it.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Ruperts Trooper » Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:50

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50
Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?

How is local opinion on the change?
Swings and roundabouts - they're probably quite relieved not to have the rat-run traffic who discovered it was a quicker way between the A5 and A14 - I regularly used it but always felt uncomfortable driving the "wrong" way down the M6 northbound sliproad - now I go the longer way down the M42 and M6 but takes no longer and possibly doesn't use any more fuel.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:11

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:43
That's as maybe. But once again you trot out the tired old cliché "entitled". We have the concept in this country of the public highway, which *anyone* is, in fact, entitled to use unless restrictions forbid it. And in motor vehicles, possession of a licence is an *earned* entitlement to use a vehicle that you are qualified to drive on said highway, whatever you think of the overall standard of drivers in the UK.

Be careful about sneering at entitlements, lest you find them removed from you when you least want it.
So your argument is that a movement that averaged 1 car a minute, if that, and only existed by accident of design, should have been plugged into a major motorway junction at massive expense to satisfy the needs of no-one because the residents of said village didn't want an entire motorway slip road decanting into their village?

You seem to be looking for an argument because I have questioned your 'right to drive'. That is the very definition of entitlement. And it is why I take your argument with the level of severity it requires; e.g. none.
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