Catthorpe re-modelling

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:28

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:11
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:43
That's as maybe. But once again you trot out the tired old cliché "entitled". We have the concept in this country of the public highway, which *anyone* is, in fact, entitled to use unless restrictions forbid it. And in motor vehicles, possession of a licence is an *earned* entitlement to use a vehicle that you are qualified to drive on said highway, whatever you think of the overall standard of drivers in the UK.

Be careful about sneering at entitlements, lest you find them removed from you when you least want it.
So your argument is that a movement that averaged 1 car a minute, if that, and only existed by accident of design, should have been plugged into a major motorway junction at massive expense to satisfy the needs of no-one because the residents of said village didn't want an entire motorway slip road decanting into their village?

You seem to be looking for an argument because I have questioned your 'right to drive'. That is the very definition of entitlement. And it is why I take your argument with the level of severity it requires; e.g. none.
Don't be ridiculous. It's a movement that only existed by accident and was never going to survive a proper redesign. Arguably the consultation regarding its removal was barely needed.

But using the word "entitled" in the sneering way that you do is never going to get people on your side.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:30

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:28
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:11
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:43
That's as maybe. But once again you trot out the tired old cliché "entitled". We have the concept in this country of the public highway, which *anyone* is, in fact, entitled to use unless restrictions forbid it. And in motor vehicles, possession of a licence is an *earned* entitlement to use a vehicle that you are qualified to drive on said highway, whatever you think of the overall standard of drivers in the UK.

Be careful about sneering at entitlements, lest you find them removed from you when you least want it.
So your argument is that a movement that averaged 1 car a minute, if that, and only existed by accident of design, should have been plugged into a major motorway junction at massive expense to satisfy the needs of no-one because the residents of said village didn't want an entire motorway slip road decanting into their village?

You seem to be looking for an argument because I have questioned your 'right to drive'. That is the very definition of entitlement. And it is why I take your argument with the level of severity it requires; e.g. none.
Don't be ridiculous. It's a movement that only existed by accident and was never going to survive a proper redesign. Arguably the consultation regarding its removal was barely needed.

But using the word "entitled" in the sneering way that you do is never going to get people on your side.
You're the one who said entitled first, I said rat-runners. You've got on your high horse desperate for an argument and made yourself look a pillock. It's embarrassing and I'd expect far better standards from the SMT of this site.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:34

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:30
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:28
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:11
So your argument is that a movement that averaged 1 car a minute, if that, and only existed by accident of design, should have been plugged into a major motorway junction at massive expense to satisfy the needs of no-one because the residents of said village didn't want an entire motorway slip road decanting into their village?

You seem to be looking for an argument because I have questioned your 'right to drive'. That is the very definition of entitlement. And it is why I take your argument with the level of severity it requires; e.g. none.
Don't be ridiculous. It's a movement that only existed by accident and was never going to survive a proper redesign. Arguably the consultation regarding its removal was barely needed.

But using the word "entitled" in the sneering way that you do is never going to get people on your side.
You're the one who said entitled first, I said rat-runners. You've got on your high horse desperate for an argument and made yourself look a pillock. It's embarrassing and I'd expect far better standards from the SMT of this site.
It's built into your "right to drive" comment. And please don't pretend that you've never used the word before.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:35

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:34
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:30
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:28
Don't be ridiculous. It's a movement that only existed by accident and was never going to survive a proper redesign. Arguably the consultation regarding its removal was barely needed.

But using the word "entitled" in the sneering way that you do is never going to get people on your side.
You're the one who said entitled first, I said rat-runners. You've got on your high horse desperate for an argument and made yourself look a pillock. It's embarrassing and I'd expect far better standards from the SMT of this site.
It's built into your "right to drive" comment. And please don't pretend that you've never used the word before.
Have you anything constructive to add or shall I make this formal? Quite a few times you charge in trying to start an argument because you don't like being called entitled when demonstrating such behaviour. Is it SMT policy to engage in borderline harrassment now?
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Big L » Thu Jan 21, 2021 20:18

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:11
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:43
That's as maybe. But once again you trot out the tired old cliché "entitled". We have the concept in this country of the public highway, which *anyone* is, in fact, entitled to use unless restrictions forbid it. And in motor vehicles, possession of a licence is an *earned* entitlement to use a vehicle that you are qualified to drive on said highway, whatever you think of the overall standard of drivers in the UK.

Be careful about sneering at entitlements, lest you find them removed from you when you least want it.
So your argument is that a movement that averaged 1 car a minute, if that, and only existed by accident of design, should have been plugged into a major motorway junction at massive expense to satisfy the needs of no-one because the residents of said village didn't want an entire motorway slip road decanting into their village?

You seem to be looking for an argument because I have questioned your 'right to drive'. That is the very definition of entitlement. And it is why I take your argument with the level of severity it requires; e.g. none.
The suggestion was that data said 1 car per minute went M6 to M1 northbound, not 1 car per minute from the villages to the motorway.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Jan 21, 2021 20:25

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:35
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:34
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:30
You're the one who said entitled first, I said rat-runners. You've got on your high horse desperate for an argument and made yourself look a pillock. It's embarrassing and I'd expect far better standards from the SMT of this site.
It's built into your "right to drive" comment. And please don't pretend that you've never used the word before.
Have you anything constructive to add or shall I make this formal? Quite a few times you charge in trying to start an argument because you don't like being called entitled when demonstrating such behaviour. Is it SMT policy to engage in borderline harrassment now?
Depends on whether you wish to have your very personal use of the word "entitled" validated or denied. The SMT will take a view if requested.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Gav » Thu Jan 21, 2021 21:08

I have a couple of friends in the area that were directly impacted by the reconfigure of this junction, so know full well that it had an impact.

The junction that existed back in 1998 when they moved there isnt there any more. it means that they have to travel to get onto any of the motorways.

Sad day when we are on a road site and we are arguing the ins and outs of the use of roads.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 21:14

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 20:25
Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:35
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 19:34
It's built into your "right to drive" comment. And please don't pretend that you've never used the word before.
Have you anything constructive to add or shall I make this formal? Quite a few times you charge in trying to start an argument because you don't like being called entitled when demonstrating such behaviour. Is it SMT policy to engage in borderline harrassment now?
Depends on whether you wish to have your very personal use of the word "entitled" validated or denied. The SMT will take a view if requested.
Is that a threat? You are complaining about a word I didn't use. This really is pathetic. Expect a formal complaint against you.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Big Nick » Thu Jan 21, 2021 21:58

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 18:43
That's as maybe. But once again you trot out the tired old cliché "entitled". We have the concept in this country of the public highway, which *anyone* is, in fact, entitled to use unless restrictions forbid it. And in motor vehicles, possession of a licence is an *earned* entitlement to use a vehicle that you are qualified to drive on said highway, whatever you think of the overall standard of drivers in the UK.

Be careful about sneering at entitlements, lest you find them removed from you when you least want it.
You are the first to use 'entitled' in this argument. You are making a false accusation.

And do I detect a hint at banning Bryn from the site - are you, a site moderator, making a veiled hint at removing his 'entitlement' to use and post on this site? Because you disagree with his opinion?

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by marconaf » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:01

Gav wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 21:08
I have a couple of friends in the area that were directly impacted by the reconfigure of this junction, so know full well that it had an impact.

The junction that existed back in 1998 when they moved there isnt there any more. it means that they have to travel to get onto any of the motorways.

Sad day when we are on a road site and we are arguing the ins and outs of the use of roads.
It is sad how some seem to have an ingrained antipathy to people actually using roads outside a very narrow and self imposed scope.

I agree, in the context of a motorway to motorway junction a few locals’ easy access is pretty trivial, except to those few locals, although it seems even they did little to protest so perhaps saw the wider cost-benefit picture themselves.

But the tendancy to offensively discount people who don’t fit an agenda is a very negative one, that sadly seems very much on the up in the World.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Gav » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:12

they moved there and there was ease of access to the M1 north or the M6 west. a good few years before they realised that this was going to be removed. such is life.

Its a few diversion now to get to the M6 or M1 junctions. and swinford isnt as easy to connect now as what it was. but as said its one of those things. big reduction in traffic in and around the whole area now. often wondered if they could build a road not connect to the motorways but provide an easier access in due course.

I guess for many years the M1/M6 was motorway to motorway then the a14 sort of messed that up for a bit. its now back to pretty much M1/M6 motorway to motorway with the A14 so its back to what it was like before. the other junctions are not that far away really in the grand scheme of things.
Last edited by Gav on Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by c2R » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:17

I suspect that the coming of the A14 and the bodge junction had such a high disbenefit for most locals - particularly when there were planned or unplanned closures of the motorway and they ended up with loads of traffic trying to fit through their villages on local roads.

Swinford to go either North or West is 4 miles to the nearest motorway junction. To go east or south is just under 7 to the nearest junction. All on very rural roads. So they're pretty well served still, even if they can't get on literally outside their houses... Not to mention also that the junction was really, really bad, congested,and difficult to exit Swinford anyway.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ais523 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:30

JohnA14J50 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50
Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?
To answer this original question directly: M6 to and from Swinford is still pretty easy, and M1 almost as easy (you have to drive a little further, joining the M6 at J1 or M1 at J20, but there's a pretty direct route onto the A5 and then A426 to get to either of those places). I assume doing this from Catthorpe is even easier (although I've only tried Swinford). Shawell has an unclassified road that leads directly to the A426 roundabout (although I've never used it and don't know what the quality is like).

Going the other way, onto the A14, has become the difficult part, because there are no junctions nearer than the A5199 and you have to go most of the way on unclassified roads rather than A roads.

And of course, going from Catthorpe to Swinford, or vice versa, has become much, much easier as a consequence of the changes to the junction (and local journeys are probably more common than long-distance motorway journeys). You could probably even do it on foot!

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by c2R » Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:48

ais523 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:30
JohnA14J50 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:50
Something that I've not seen discussed much - how much harder is it for those in Catthorpe village to get onto the Motorway network now they no longer have direct access at 'their' junction?
To answer this original question directly: M6 to and from Swinford is still pretty easy, and M1 almost as easy (you have to drive a little further, joining the M6 at J1 or M1 at J20, but there's a pretty direct route onto the A5 and then A426 to get to either of those places). I assume doing this from Catthorpe is even easier (although I've only tried Swinford). Shawell has an unclassified road that leads directly to the A426 roundabout (although I've never used it and don't know what the quality is like).

Going the other way, onto the A14, has become the difficult part, because there are no junctions nearer than the A5199 and you have to go most of the way on unclassified roads rather than A roads.
Of course, it's likely given the queues for the junction heading westbound on the A14, residents might have previously exited at the A5199 anyway if heading for the village - particularly given you had this to contend with:
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.405696, ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ais523 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 23:04

c2R wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:48
Of course, it's likely given the queues for the junction heading westbound on the A14, residents might have previously exited at the A5199 anyway if heading for the village - particularly given you had this to contend with:
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.405696, ... 312!8i6656
Right, Swinford to the A14 would have been very easy (it's a left turn at a light-controlled junction, so you can sneak through as the lights change between their M6→A14 and M1→A14 phases), but doing the reverse movement sounds like an absolute nightmare (pretty much requiring doing a complete loop of one of the most congested junctions in the country). Of course, having no reasonable movements at the junction rather than one is still a downgrade.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by Stevie D » Fri Jan 22, 2021 00:34

Gav wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 21:08
Sad day when we are on a road site and we are arguing the ins and outs of the use of roads.
I don't think it is.
Because nothing exists in isolation.
I am interested in the efficient and effective use of the road network.
That might mean building new roads, improving existing roads, improving junctions, or it might mean closing off access points and junctions, or limiting use of other roads if that is what is needed to enable the network overall to meet demand.

In the case of Catthorpe and Swinford, while I can see that the loss of direct access to the motorway network could have a negative effect on the residents (and without even considering whether that is outweighed by the benefits from losing through traffic destined for the motorways), overall the benefits to the network and to the drivership of the country as a whole are significantly greater by allowing a more efficient free-flow junction than by retaining access that would only be needed by a very small volume of traffic.

This is one of those situations where the good of the many trumps the good of the few. Thousands of drivers gain from removing access to a couple of small villages, while a handful of people living in those villages now have a slightly longer journey to get to the motorway. And when I say slightly longer, that is what I mean. Catthorpe to the M1 (northbound at J20, southbound at J18) takes 4–5 minutes longer than it would with direct access at J19, to the M6 (westbound at J1) takes 3–4 minutes longer than it would with direct access at J0, and even the worst one, access to the A14 (via M6 J1) adds less than 10 minutes to the journey. This is a similar situation to that faced by villages up and down the country when nearby roads are upgraded – we don't provide direct motorway access to each and every one of them, and nor is there any need to here.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by darkcape » Fri Jan 22, 2021 05:58

I used to go for breakfast to the farm shop in Catthorpe fairoy regularly and mosy people I chatted to commented on how much quieter the village was as a result of no rat-runners. The J16-18 smart motorway scheme a few years afterwards would've also helped things. You can't please everyone but overall I don't think there's many complaints.

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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by A303Chris » Fri Jan 22, 2021 09:43

Gav wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:12
they moved there and there was ease of access to the M1 north or the M6 west. a good few years before they realised that this was going to be removed. such is life.

Its a few diversion now to get to the M6 or M1 junctions. and swinford isnt as easy to connect now as what it was. but as said its one of those things. big reduction in traffic in and around the whole area now. often wondered if they could build a road not connect to the motorways but provide an easier access in due course.

I guess for many years the M1/M6 was motorway to motorway then the a14 sort of messed that up for a bit. its now back to pretty much M1/M6 motorway to motorway with the A14 so its back to what it was like before. the other junctions are not that far away really in the grand scheme of things.
The thing is Swinthorpe and Catthorpe never had direct access to the motorway network, prior to the A14 plugging in and nor should they. There access is now J18 S/B and J20 N/B as it was prior to 1994.

It was the result of the back of the fag pack design for the junction which was built using existing bridges at the junction so no new ones needed to be built. The other reason was so that non motorway traffic could leave the A14, which was always a rouge argument as can be seen now.

The junction serves three parts of the Strategic Highway Network (SHN) and local traffic should never have direct access to such an important junction on the SHN, something the HE is very strong about. The last thing is local traffic come in to conflicting movements with long distance traffic on the SHN, which affects the free flow of the junction.
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Re: Catthorpe re-modelling

Post by ForestChav » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:12

A303Chris wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 09:43
Gav wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 22:12
they moved there and there was ease of access to the M1 north or the M6 west. a good few years before they realised that this was going to be removed. such is life.

Its a few diversion now to get to the M6 or M1 junctions. and swinford isnt as easy to connect now as what it was. but as said its one of those things. big reduction in traffic in and around the whole area now. often wondered if they could build a road not connect to the motorways but provide an easier access in due course.

I guess for many years the M1/M6 was motorway to motorway then the a14 sort of messed that up for a bit. its now back to pretty much M1/M6 motorway to motorway with the A14 so its back to what it was like before. the other junctions are not that far away really in the grand scheme of things.
The thing is Swinthorpe and Catthorpe never had direct access to the motorway network, prior to the A14 plugging in and nor should they. There access is now J18 S/B and J20 N/B as it was prior to 1994.

It was the result of the back of the fag pack design for the junction which was built using existing bridges at the junction so no new ones needed to be built. The other reason was so that non motorway traffic could leave the A14, which was always a rouge argument as can be seen now.

The junction serves three parts of the Strategic Highway Network (SHN) and local traffic should never have direct access to such an important junction on the SHN, something the HE is very strong about. The last thing is local traffic come in to conflicting movements with long distance traffic on the SHN, which affects the free flow of the junction.
The elephant in the room is the A14 and sideways from that the possibility that non-motorway traffic using the A14 could be stupid enough not to turn off at the A5199 and effectively get "stuck", but I haven't seen that this has in fact been anything than a theoretical possibility. So whilst you could say that the exit to local traffic is desirable all it would really do is cause the local roads to become the latest escape route onto the M1 or M6, and would overcomplicate the junction when all that would be needed would be the facility to turn around.

As you correctly point out there's no real need to connect it up to either the M1 or M6 and in any case none of it is far (via the A5 and A428) from full-access junctions with both the M1 and M6.
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Re: New Lower Thames Crossing

Post by the cheesecake man » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:58

Big Nick wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 15:15
I see the problems. I've been looking at Bing which must use an older version of OS maps.
Yes it does: it still has the A14 going over Huntingdon with the new route to the south under construction, where OS Maps has been updated. But unless I want to print I usually use Bing as it's quicker than OS. This time I got caught out by out-of-date information. :oops:

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