Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

[Ritchie333]

On a side note, it's interesting to compare and contrast what we do in the UK compared to other countries. If you think we downgrade a lot of roads, pop over to France and try and find if there's any bit of the RN5 that still exists. Although, in fairness, that's largely because trunk and locally funded roads must have different numbers, and France has gone through quite a large detrunking spree in the last 10 years or so.

I seem to recall that Italian SS roads still follow the originally allocated routes, even when they go right through the middle of long since bypassed towns.

From what I can see, the 1970s were the "golden years" (for want of a better expression!) of road renumbering. As well as the A11, A5, A6 and A38 having bits getting downgraded, you had large sections of the A8, A9 and A90 getting downgraded the minute the parallel motorway was built. Since the A3400, I don't think we've had such a large scale renumbering - the old A5 still runs as non primary to the new bit of the A55 across Anglesey, for example.

[Steven]

Since the A3400

Now you mention it - that's one of my pet hates. Renumbering in the style of A3400 and A4141 just isn't worth it. It's just silly.

Either leave the number alone or to the job properly.

[Ritchie333]

I believe locals in Henley in Arden still refer to the main road running up the High Street as the "old A34", and I've been to see in-laws in Redditch who understood exactly what I meant when I said I got there "through Stratford on the old A34".

I'm not surprised to be honest, it's easier to say, for one thing. How the flip do you pronounce "A3400" anyway? "A three four oh oh" or "A thirty four hundred"?

Edit : Changed wording to reflect what I meant, not what I said.

[Chris Bertram]

How the flip do you pronounce "A3400" anyway? "A thirty four oh oh" or "A thirty four hundred"?

The latter, for me.

[a1adam]

Am I right in thinking that the A20 through Maidstone was temporarily numbered the A2020, and the M20 was originally the A20(M)?

If so, then it shows that there have indeed been occasions when a road has been renumbered and then subsequently renumbered back to its original designation.

[a1adam]

BTW I thought it was pronounced "The A Three Thousand, Four Hundred"

[Ritchie333]

Am I right in thinking that the A20 through Maidstone was temporarily numbered the A2020, and the M20 was originally the A20(M)?

In about two minutes, Steven will wander into this thread and say something along the lines of :

Sheesh. Doesn't anybody read Pathetic Motorways any more or what?

(Seriously, though, yes, you're right. The Maidstone Bypass had actually been kicking around since the 1930s.)

[Steven]

Sheesh. Doesn't anybody read Pathetic Motorways any more or what?

[Chris Bertram]

Am I right in thinking that the A20 through Maidstone was temporarily numbered the A2020, and the M20 was originally the A20(M)?

If so, then it shows that there have indeed been occasions when a road has been renumbered and then subsequently renumbered back to its original designation.

Several more examples of this around Tyneside, usually associated with reroutings of the A1.

[PeterA5145]

In all seriousness, I would also prefer these routes to keep their identity throughout, but discouraging use by the change of route number is a policy that has been around for a while. I do not know if anyone has actually collected evidence of what effect this does have on potential drivers of the old route.

It would be interesting to establish to what extent renumbering and downgrading really does divert traffic off a road. I would say the extent to which it does will depend on the proportion of regular vs occasional users. Commuter traffic will tend to find its way through the road network by osmosis regardless of road classification.

But if you take the final step and downgrade a road from B to unclassified status, then that will kill off the occasional traffic as it will no longer stand out on maps. If you're planning a route, you may well be prepared to include B-roads, but you're very unlikely to include unfamiliar unclassified roads except at the beginning and end of the journey - even though there are some unclassified roads that are just as good as nearby A and B roads, and provide direct routes between towns.

[a1adam]

When a former primary route is bypassed by a motorway then I believe the former route should keep its old number and become non-primary.

Motorways need viable alternative routes where possible, not only as a scenic route or to avoid congestion, but also for vehicles prohibited from the motorway and for emergency closures to the motorway. It makes perfect sense for these alternative routes to keep their original number.

I also wonder how much sat-nav has changed people's driving habits, when it comes to driving along the former primary routes if they want to leave the motorway? I don't have sat-nav myself, my route-planning is all done all up here so I'm not sure how it handles directing people onto different status routes.

It might be that this whole deterrent-based-on-renumbering system is becoming obsolete now, if people no longer are no longer relying on maps to choose their routes.

[Burns]

Does anyone here really bemoan the fact there's no A90 between Dunfermline and Perth? Or that the A11 bit the dust? There's no reason for keeping those old numbers except misty eyed nostalgia and a reluctance to let go of the past.

I was going to mention the M90. The old A90 which is now a mix of B roads and the A912 isn't really a suitable motorway alternative unless you have loads of time to kill, especially the section through Glenfarg. If those roads were still considered the A90 then it might cause an increase in traffic believing it was an acceptable alternative route when in fact it's one I'd never touch unless I was needing to. You'd also have to re-arrange the Perth road numbering system to allow the A90 to take over the A85 to junction 11 and Perth's road numbering gets confused enough in the middle as it is.

This then leads onto the East Coast renumbering. The A92 was obviously the main road north for a long time and was designated to follow the east coast mainline as much as possible but I doubt much traffic going from Kirkcaldy to Dundee would have ever followed the original route of the A92, preferring the A92/A914 route which is why the A92 and A914 swapped over.

The route between Dundee and Aberdeen was a bit incoherent as well, changing numbers three times so renumbering that route when it was upgraded also made a lot of sense. Though if they do ever get round to building the Aberdeen bypass (I refuse to call it the Western Peripheral route since you'll never get an Eastern peripheral route built) I'd like to see the A92 regain some of it's original ground in this area.

[shimtoan]

<-
A1(M)
THE NORTH

->
A1
Newcastle

^^^^^^
maybe?

[GrahamP]

Does anyone here really bemoan the fact there's no A90 between Dunfermline and Perth?

That's different - the M90 is in Scotland, therefore is part of the A90 but under motorway regulations. (A better question would be: why is there still an A9 between Polmont and Bridge of Allan, an A8 between Gogar and Newbridge and from Baillieston West, an A80 through Stepps...?)

[Ritchie333]

I don't really think it's that much different - you're just looking at the same basic fact - road renumbering is inconsistent - from the other angle. Since about 1980, I don't think there's been much evidence of an old A road getting downgraded following the opening of a motorway - certainly the A77 didn't suffer from it.

[Chris5156]

Can I just clear up the initial question in this thread, which hasn't yet received a direct answer?

Just wondering what the logic is, if any?

There is no logic, and to stop considering the possibility of logic where road numbering is concerned will go a long way to helping you understand why things are the way they are!

On SABRE we are enthusiasts who care about the rules of road numbering, the system that was developed in 1922, the potential of having a neat and organised system where it all makes sense. We see road numbering as a thing in itself, a thing to be studied and understood.

The people responsible for numbering roads do not care and, I suspect in most cases, do not know about the rules of road numbering, and they are not interested in seeing it as a coherent system. They see road numbering as something that has to be done occasionally and do not have time to study or understand it. If a road has a number they are happy.

[Steven]

The people responsible for numbering roads do not care and, I suspect in most cases, do not know about the rules of road numbering, and they are not interested in seeing it as a coherent system.

Indeed so. I don't think I've ever seen an official document for public consumption that actually describes the "2" zone boundaries correctly.

[Ritchie333]

Indeed so. I don't think I've ever seen an official document for public consumption that actually describes the "2" zone boundaries correctly.

I thought "surely the original 1922 Road Lists, or the text on the inside of any 1922/23 MOT map must get this right", but I've just checked and it is indeed wrong.

One analogy I can think of is the DfT view road numbers like part numbers or serial numbers for a particular product. As long as it allows something to be quickly and easily identifiable, that's good enough. Perhaps a good example from another field that corresponds to "memorable" road numbers would be a 741 op-amp, or an SL-1200 turntable.

[M56phil]

I personally would love to see the A5 and A6 renumbered back into London.

I never saw the point of renumbering it into a 4 digit mess.

All AX roads to me are historical....

I also think the A8 should also be resurrected between Edinburgh and Junction 6 of the M8.

[Steven]

Indeed so. I don't think I've ever seen an official document for public consumption that actually describes the "2" zone boundaries correctly.

I thought "surely the original 1922 Road Lists, or the text on the inside of any 1922/23 MOT map must get this right", but I've just checked and it is indeed wrong.

Call me easily amused, but it's even wrong on the Kent sheets...