Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

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a1adam
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by a1adam »

I perfectly understand that the logic of road numbering may have gone out the window to a certain extent. I also accept that road numbering needs to be a dynamic process and that road numbers shouldn't be set in stone, because routes change and evolve over time.

But if there are cases where there are obvious inconsistencies or needless complications, then these should be ironed out, and enthusiasts like us are the people most likely to spot them and bring them to people's attention.

To me it all boils down to the fact that just because a new motorway is built, the adjacent A road doesn't stop being an A road, it just stops being a trunk or primary route. The existing road should continue with its original number, in the name of consistency, simplicity, practicality and heritage.

And, in the event that there are issues with the motorway, there will be a ready-made, clearly marked alternative route nearby.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by GrahamP »

Ritchie333 wrote:Since about 1980, I don't think there's been much evidence of an old A road getting downgraded following the opening of a motorway - certainly the A77 didn't suffer from it.
Apart from the A74. (Okay okay I know, it lives on as the A74(M).) But the section of A9 that runs parallel to the M9 has actually been extended, from Falkirk to Polmont. At least this means it ends on the M9 instead of on the A803.

I reckon the truth of the matter is that neither the civil servants who assign numbers nor the vast majority of people who navigate by them take road numbers half as seriously as folk on here do.
Last edited by GrahamP on Thu Nov 18, 2010 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by FosseWay »

PeterA5145 wrote:It would be interesting to establish to what extent renumbering and downgrading really does divert traffic off a road. I would say the extent to which it does will depend on the proportion of regular vs occasional users.
I agree this would be very interesting, but also fiendishly difficult. The main issue is how you differentiate between reductions in traffic on the old road caused by the existence of the new one (whatever either is called), changes in classification and/or number, and other engineering or signing changes at the point where people must make a decision about which route to use (anything from simply not signing long-distance destinations to prohibiting certain movements at junctions).

Of course, if TPTB let us loose on a suitable scheme, allowing us to keep the original classification and numbering at first and then tinkering as mentioned, we could come up with an approximate answer to the question. But in the real world, it's very difficult to see how remotely reliable figures can be obtained. That being the case, one has to wonder whether the changes on roads like the old A11 or A34 were worth it -- they presumably cost a fair bit in signs and labour.

Edit: Someone mentioned Italy and the fact that numbers of strade statali tend to follow the original routes regardless of upgrades. This is certainly true where you've got a tolled autostrada alongside. From the consistency of signage, it would seem to be official policy to sign destinations that are reachable on an autostrada along strade statali as well, presumably to give a free alternative to those who don't want to pay the tolls. Where you have a new non-autostrada, non-tolled road bypassing a stretch of strada statale, the outcome is inconsistent. Sometimes the new road gets the original number; sometimes it gets a 'bis' number, e.g. SS 228 bis; and sometimes it has no number at all that I can see (such as the Florence--Siena superstrada).
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Ritchie333 »

Steven wrote:
Ritchie333 wrote:I thought "surely the original 1922 Road Lists, or the text on the inside of any 1922/23 MOT map must get this right", but I've just checked and it is indeed wrong.
Call me easily amused, but it's even wrong on the Kent sheets...
You're easily amused :P

Actually, an even bigger elephant in the room is the boundary between the 3 and 4 zones west of Bath, which is completely glossed over with a vague line on the original zone boundary map here, particularly since I've seen two pieces of MOT documentation (from 1922 and 1934) that both state the A4 originally ended in the centre of Bath with no obvious place for the zone boundary to continue. Despite working it out from the numbering of all the relevant roads around this area, I'm not still not entirely sure where it goes.

Although there's no logic to modern day road numbering, I did think at least the original system as proposed by Sir Henry Maybury and colleagues was very systematic and logical, and everything fitted together perfectly, but even that doesn't appear to be the case and has obvious holes in it like the B259.

(Who said "The more I learn, the less I know?"....)
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From the SABRE Wiki: 1922 Road Lists :

This portal deals with the schemes of road classification and numbering first drawn up and put into effect in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1922-23.

Details of the scheme for Great Britain were first made available to the general public in a list of road classifications and numbers issued in booklet form by the Ministry of Transport on 1 April 1923, while those provided for under the (separate) scheme for Northern Ireland were announced in the Belfast

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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by a1adam »

Clearly a logic-based system is going to be better than an illogical one. It's a slippery slope when the rules, which really are simple, aren't adhered to.

Whatever next...2-digit trunk routes starting in the wrong zone or something equally dysfunctional? I mean, can you imagine what would happen to our society if we allowed a major road like, say, the A14 to be rerouted out-of-zone to start in the 5 zone?

All hell would break loose!
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Halstead »

a1adam wrote:Whatever next...2-digit trunk routes starting in the wrong zone or something equally dysfunctional?
Ssh don't mention the A41! :bang: (groan too late...)
6 years...
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by wrinkly »

Among renumberings of roads bypassed by motorways, the one that seems most wrong to me is the A876 becoming A88. It's so wrong for a bypassed road to have fewer digits than before! And in that case it's in the wrong zone too.

I can't get worked up just because a road starts in the wrong zone for its number, provided a major part of its length is in the right zone for its number. I think that that should have been the criterion all along.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by si404 »

Halstead wrote:
a1adam wrote:Whatever next...2-digit trunk routes starting in the wrong zone or something equally dysfunctional?
Ssh don't mention the A41! :bang: (groan too late...)
Well would you want to move the zone boundary and had an A5/A1 multiplex? Better to have the whole Watford bypass as A41.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Ritchie333 »

This thread could run and run with examples of numbering that doesn't fit all the anticipated rules as we understand them. In a year's time, this thread could rival "Botched Roadsigns" for the longest actively used thread on SABRE.

I think I'll take Chris' advice and duck out now.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Mattemotorway »

Ritchie333 wrote:In a year's time, this thread could rival "Botched Roadsigns" for the longest actively used thread on SABRE.
Irony- The longest actively used thread on SABRE was started by a member who is now banned!
My old posts are just downright embarrassing.

Expects to climb the job ladder quickly and is often glued to my phone... Apparently..
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by a1adam »

Ah but in a way the A41 isn't in the wrong zone, because it's perfectly acceptable for a road to enter a higher zone 8-)

Doesn't mean the A1 cannon is ideal, don't get me wrong. But I'd be more bothered if it started on the other side of the A4!

Ritchie, to bring this topic back to what it was originally about: I'm specifically referring to road numbers damaged by motorways, not just ones that are wrong or illogical (yes, we would be here for ever highlighting them!)

I mean ones that used to make perfect sense but have since had bits removed from the middle of them.

The A21 around the M25 is an interesting one. Should the A224 at Polhill be renumbered back to A21? I'm not sure. Probably not, but the disappearance of the A21 for a couple of miles technically makes this another example of a damaged road number. Halstead, this is your patch, what do you think?!
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Steven »

Ritchie333 wrote:Actually, an even bigger elephant in the room is the boundary between the 3 and 4 zones west of Bath, which is completely glossed over with a vague line on the original zone boundary map here, particularly since I've seen two pieces of MOT documentation (from 1922 and 1934) that both state the A4 originally ended in the centre of Bath with no obvious place for the zone boundary to continue. Despite working it out from the numbering of all the relevant roads around this area, I'm not still not entirely sure where it goes.
You've looked into this in far more depth than me, but I don't recall seeing anywhere the "official" definitions of the two fault lines in the system - the 5/7 and 1/9 zone boundaries. We know that they must be the River Eden and the A900 respectively, but that's from empirical evidence only.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by GrahamP »

wrinkly wrote:Among renumberings of roads bypassed by motorways, the one that seems most wrong to me is the A876 becoming A88. ... And in that case it's in the wrong zone too.
Depends on whether the boundary between the 8 and 9 zones runes along the A9 (in which case it's out-of-zone) or the M9 (in which case it straddles the boundary and quite correctly has a number starting with 8).
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by skiddaw05 »

To me it still seems logical to keep the London end of the A11 at it is part of the central London to Norwich route - it's just the designation which switches along the way. Maybe it would have made more sense to call the motorway bit the A11(M).

I can't recall the bypassed A11 being much to write home about (much like what's left of the S2 at Elveden) so I can't see any particular reason for it to have remained the A11. Now the A38 is a different kettle of halibut, at leat if the section north of Bristol is anything to go by - a noble piece of road which should not be robbed of its status at any cost :)
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Halstead »

si404 wrote:
Halstead wrote:
a1adam wrote:Whatever next...2-digit trunk routes starting in the wrong zone or something equally dysfunctional?
Ssh don't mention the A41! :bang: (groan too late...)
Well would you want to move the zone boundary and had an A5/A1 multiplex? Better to have the whole Watford bypass as A41.
My response is unintentional, but highlights countless incidents when one liner questions like these are churned around.
a1adam wrote:The A21 around the M25 is an interesting one. Should the A224 at Polhill be renumbered back to A21? I'm not sure. Probably not, but the disappearance of the A21 for a couple of miles technically makes this another example of a damaged road number. Halstead, this is your patch, what do you think?!
IMHO I think it's better to keep the A224 number for now. Trying to reestablish the A21 number would require it multiplexing with the A25 to get back to normal and giving confusion over the Riverhead - Sevenoaks road (A224, A2068, etc.) You could reroute the A21 down the B2211 instead but this would still cause the same problem.

From Hewitt's roundabout the difference with the A224 on terms of signage is that it's for "Non motorway traffic" in contrast with the A21. I actually prefer taking the A224 to reach Sevenoaks but I don't fancy spending spare cash to change the signs and hinting masses of others to take the same journey when the consequences are unknown.
6 years...
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Ritchie333 »

Steven wrote:You've looked into this in far more depth than me, but I don't recall seeing anywhere the "official" definitions of the two fault lines in the system - the 5/7 and 1/9 zone boundaries. We know that they must be the River Eden and the A900 respectively, but that's from empirical evidence only.
I think I have got out the two key road numbering files (MT 39/241 and MT 39/246) from the National Archives quite a few times now and extracted pretty much everything useful from them, and there really isn't anything of note other than what you can get from the associated blurb on the inner flap of an MOT map (which is quoted verbatim on the wiki, iirc).

Regarding the 5/7 zone split, the River Eden looks obvious as it forms a natural boundary with roads branching off the B5307 and those branching off the A74 (as was). However, it leaves a very small point of ambiguity where the original A7 bridged the Eden to the north of the centre of Carlisle. We now know from mapping evidence that the A6 (English Street), A7 (Scotch Street) and A595 (Castle Street) all met at a point, so it could be along the A7 and along the Eden, along the A7 and A74 and along the border, or at some imaginary point at the A6/7/595 junction out to the Solway Firth. Even putting it on Hadrian's Wall would work! If there was an official definition of the "fault" lines, it's probably been lost. I suspect though, there wasn't one, and roads were just given numbers that fit the rules as close as possible.

I dare say that there may be a few tidbits elsewhere, but as someone (I think Jonathan) said recently, the UK appears to archive about 3% of Government documentation, so at times I'm amazed we've got anything official to go on.

Oh, and I'm now going to do some serious pot stirring and show you the maybe out of zone B861. What's your thoughts on that? :twisted:
a1adam wrote:The A21 around the M25 is an interesting one.
If you drive on the A21 heading towards M25 J4 here, the southwards A224 (ex A21) is signposted "Non motorway traffic (A21)".
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by vlad »

Ritchie333 wrote:Oh, and I'm now going to do some serious pot stirring and show you the maybe out of zone B861. What's your thoughts on that? :twisted:
That's entirely to the west of the A9, so it's in the right zone.

The fact that the A9 is pointing SW at that point, so that in fact only roads to its east should be in the 8 zone at that point is completely irrelevant. :)

This is where you point to a very large scale map of Inverness and show that the A9, A82 and B861 used to meet at a point confusing the matter even more....
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by t1(M) »

vlad wrote:
Ritchie333 wrote:Oh, and I'm now going to do some serious pot stirring and show you the maybe out of zone B861. What's your thoughts on that? :twisted:
That's entirely to the west of the A9, so it's in the right zone.

The fact that the A9 is pointing SW at that point, so that in fact only roads to its east should be in the 8 zone at that point is completely irrelevant. :)
No, the B861 is to the right of the A9 as you travel away from the edinburgh hub. AIUI, the A9 originally ended at Inverness and everything north of the Beuly Firth was in Zone 8.

To get back on topic, perhaps the reason some A-roads superseded by motorways get renumbered and others don't (apart from when they become B roads, obviously) may be because they are de-trunked and become county roads, and different councils (or even the same council at different times) have different ideas about whether they need a new number. If they ask the DfT for a new number, they'll be given one but if they decide to keep the old one the DfT won't over-rule them.
As for disjointed sections of things like the A11, A34, A46, local people are familar with the number and rarely notice if there is "another" road with the same number 100 miles away. And as the sections are the responsibility of different county councils, there is unlikely to be confusion in the highways departments.
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by vlad »

t1(M) wrote:
vlad wrote:
Ritchie333 wrote:Oh, and I'm now going to do some serious pot stirring and show you the maybe out of zone B861. What's your thoughts on that? :twisted:
That's entirely to the west of the A9, so it's in the right zone.

The fact that the A9 is pointing SW at that point, so that in fact only roads to its east should be in the 8 zone at that point is completely irrelevant. :)
No, the B861 is to the right of the A9 as you travel away from the edinburgh hub. AIUI, the A9 originally ended at Inverness and everything north of the Beuly Firth was in Zone 8.
I figured - that was my point. If the B861 was entirely to the north of the Beauly Firth, or else met the A88 rather than the A9 then it wouldn't be controversial. Since it did meet the A9, to its right, that's where the problem is.

Perhaps I should have stated it a bit more clearly....
As for disjointed sections of things like the A11, A34, A46, local people are familar with the number and rarely notice if there is "another" road with the same number 100 miles away. And as the sections are the responsibility of different county councils, there is unlikely to be confusion in the highways departments.
I was going to mention that it'd be uneconomic to renumber, say, the section of the A34 between the M42 and the A6 as replacing all the road signs would be hideously expensive. Then I remembered that they'd needed to do just that when they renumbered the A34 between the M42 and the A40. Perhaps that's why most of that became the A3400, as producing a small plate with "00" written on it, to add to the existing road sign, is cheaper than replacing all the signs with A34 on them.

Hey - I'm not in finance, what do I know? :)
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Re: Renumbering Roads Parallel To Motorways (eg A11, A5, A6 etc)

Post by Chris Bertram »

vlad wrote:I was going to mention that it'd be uneconomic to renumber, say, the section of the A34 between the M42 and the A6 as replacing all the road signs would be hideously expensive. Then I remembered that they'd needed to do just that when they renumbered the A34 between the M42 and the A40. Perhaps that's why most of that became the A3400, as producing a small plate with "00" written on it, to add to the existing road sign, is cheaper than replacing all the signs with A34 on them.
Maybe it would have been, but as the A34, it was primary (green signs), and now, as the A3400 it is non-primary (white signs), so all the signs had to be replaced anyway, all the way up to Monkspath.
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