Forth Replacement Crossing

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KeithW
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by KeithW »

djw1981 wrote:
wrinkly wrote:I have a dim and vague idea that at some time in the distant past an undertaking was made that the A720 would not be extended north of the A8.

Incidentally I see that current Landranger mapping shows (as a "place of interest", with blue shaded background to the text) a "Country Esate" (sic) at Cammo, west of the A902. Whilst some OS maps have disputable spellings of some placenames, I don't remember seeing a typo in an ordinary word on an OS map before.
I have heard mention of some deliberate typos to help OS spot when people use their mapping without attribution or payment etc.
The Ordnance Survey have openly admitted to using plagiarism traps to make it easier to prove the case when people rip off their maps and the same type of thing appears in many other reference works. In the case of the OS it is often rather subtle such as a switched sequence of minor bends on a river. There was a rather substantial judgement against the AA when plagiarism traps including no existing cul de sacs appeared on AA town maps.
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orudge
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by orudge »

mikehindsonevans wrote:You know that you want to cross the "Forth Bridge" - but why does that destination randomly disappear from certain roadsigns and overhead gantries just where you need reassurance?
The signing strategy is now to use “Perth, Dundee” instead of “Forth Road Bridge”. I don’t know what, if anything, may be signed on the A720 though!
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

orudge wrote:
mikehindsonevans wrote:You know that you want to cross the "Forth Bridge" - but why does that destination randomly disappear from certain roadsigns and overhead gantries just where you need reassurance?
The signing strategy is now to use “Perth, Dundee” instead of “Forth Road Bridge”. I don’t know what, if anything, may be signed on the A720 though!
This is what you see on the westbound A1 at Old Craighall:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.92488 ... 6656?hl=en

No mention of the Forth Road Bridge or Queensferry Crossing on the westbound approach to the Sheriffhall roundabout:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.90077 ... 6656?hl=en
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orudge
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by orudge »

Robert Kilcoyne wrote:This is what you see on the westbound A1 at Old Craighall:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.92488 ... 6656?hl=en
Interestingly it used to be a much more cluttered sign, with City Bypass and Forth Road Bridge as well as Glasgow and Stirling.
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Berk
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Berk »

I know we’ve probably discussed this already, but have there been any indications as to whether the Scottish Government would be happy to trial tolling for cars, motorcycles, light vans, etc. on the old bridge??

I’m not sure there would be such a heavy demand it would put the stability at risk. But much of the benefit of having two bridges could be realised.

This with the proviso, of course, of more frequent maintenance.
RichardB
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by RichardB »

Glen wrote:For other examples of the same Thorn low-level lighting, see the Holm Mills Bridge or Landshut Bridge.
What is the thinking behind that kind of lighting? Is there a reason why you would want to dazzle drivers with face level lighting? Is it deemed to be a waste of light if nobody gets dazzled?
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Duncan macknight »

Queensferry crossing to become a motorway on the 1st February. Hopefully this will mean a removal of that silly wee bit of the A90 and it too becoming motorway?
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by GrahameCase »

Duncan macknight wrote:Queensferry crossing to become a motorway on the 1st February. Hopefully this will mean a removal of that silly wee bit of the A90 and it too becoming motorway?
Don’t hold your breath
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orudge
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by orudge »

Duncan macknight wrote:Queensferry crossing to become a motorway on the 1st February. Hopefully this will mean a removal of that silly wee bit of the A90 and it too becoming motorway?
That would suggest all the signs, that they've just erected, being replaced!

The literature on the Forth Bridges site about the changes include the map we've seen for ages referring to "Special Road (A90)". I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon unfortunately.
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Duncan macknight »

orudge wrote:
Duncan macknight wrote:Queensferry crossing to become a motorway on the 1st February. Hopefully this will mean a removal of that silly wee bit of the A90 and it too becoming motorway?
That would suggest all the signs, that they've just erected, being replaced!

The literature on the Forth Bridges site about the changes include the map we've seen for ages referring to "Special Road (A90)". I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon unfortunately.
I don’t see why it’s there anyway. Okay I do see, it’s to allow non motorway traffic to get off before it becomes M90 again over the bridge. However there’s already a half diamond where the A90 and M90 merge but it’s restricted to buses only which is a real pain. With a bit more thought the M90 could have been fully connected to the network and not have this gap...
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Burns
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Burns »

I believe the issue is that whilst the M90 gap irks us, the World at large doesn't care. The road will drive the same, regardless of the signage colour. In an ideal World, the gap would be eradicated, leaving the M90 as a continuous motorway.
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orudge
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by orudge »

Yes, it's something that I think we all agree is annoying, from a Sabristic point of view at least.

I guess the difficulty in opening up the bus-only slip is you'd need to have some kind of sign that means "NO ENTRY except for buses and non-motorway traffic".

Somebody else suggested making the A90 a special road (perhaps the A90(M)) between the B924 off-slip and the M90, which in theory sounds good, but I expect the considerable diversion through South Queensferry would be unacceptable. Cyclists and pedestrians are already prohibited from that stretch of the A90 though, so it would just be learner drivers, low-powered motorbikes, tractors and horses that would be affected - the question I suppose is how many of them are there along there?

Ultimately, the road physically is built to the same standard as the M90 either side, with full hard shoulders, and so there's really no practical difference for the majority of road users other than the colour of the signs. It bothers (at least some of) us, but probably nobody else - same as the A74(M), etc.
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Altnabreac »

Looking at the map though it does raise a wee trivia question. Is there a stretch of motorway in SABRE territory that is as inaccurately numbered as the M90 now is? J3 Halbeath being in reality the 8th (or 9th) junction from the M9 / M90 split:
M9 J1A
M90 J1
(unnumbered bus only exit to A9000)
M90 J1A
M90 J1B
M90 J1C
M90 J2
M90 J2A
M90 J3
Robert Kilcoyne
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

Altnabreac wrote:Looking at the map though it does raise a wee trivia question. Is there a stretch of motorway in SABRE territory that is as inaccurately numbered as the M90 now is? J3 Halbeath being in reality the 8th (or 9th) junction from the M9 / M90 split:
M9 J1A
M90 J1
(unnumbered bus only exit to A9000)
M90 J1A
M90 J1B
M90 J1C
M90 J2
M90 J2A
M90 J3
The junction numbering on the M74 through Glasgow is a bit of a mess too.

And there are of course the missing junction numbers on the A1(M) in North Yorkshire...
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orudge
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by orudge »

Altnabreac wrote:Looking at the map though it does raise a wee trivia question. Is there a stretch of motorway in SABRE territory that is as inaccurately numbered as the M90 now is? J3 Halbeath being in reality the 8th (or 9th) junction from the M9 / M90 split
The bus-only exit is only accessible from the A90, so I don't think would count here.

The junction numbering is just about as good as the M876 numbering that Chris refers to on his site - " Follow the junction numbers in order and you'll find yourself counting 5, 1, 2, 8, 7, 3!" :)

On an unrelated note, it appears the Google Maps satellite imagery of the Forth Road Bridge area is so out of date the M9 Spur (as it was) still terminates at a roundabout with the A8000!
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Chris5156 »

Altnabreac wrote:Looking at the map though it does raise a wee trivia question. Is there a stretch of motorway in SABRE territory that is as inaccurately numbered as the M90 now is? J3 Halbeath being in reality the 8th (or 9th) junction from the M9 / M90 split:
M9 J1A
M90 J1
(unnumbered bus only exit to A9000)
M90 J1A
M90 J1B
M90 J1C
M90 J2
M90 J2A
M90 J3
I think I noted before (possibly even earlier on this very thread) that, if you're coming from the Edinburgh City Bypass and heading over the Queensferry Crossing, M90 J3 will be the eleventh motorway junction you encounter and yet also the first to have a junction number higher than "2". The sequence (including M8 and M9) runs 1, 2, 1, 1A, 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 2A and finally 3.

I don't mean to do a disservice to the Scottish, but Scotland really isn't very good at junction numbers.
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Halmyre »

Chris5156 wrote:
Altnabreac wrote:Looking at the map though it does raise a wee trivia question. Is there a stretch of motorway in SABRE territory that is as inaccurately numbered as the M90 now is? J3 Halbeath being in reality the 8th (or 9th) junction from the M9 / M90 split:
M9 J1A
M90 J1
(unnumbered bus only exit to A9000)
M90 J1A
M90 J1B
M90 J1C
M90 J2
M90 J2A
M90 J3
I think I noted before (possibly even earlier on this very thread) that, if you're coming from the Edinburgh City Bypass and heading over the Queensferry Crossing, M90 J3 will be the eleventh motorway junction you encounter and yet also the first to have a junction number higher than "2". The sequence (including M8 and M9) runs 1, 2, 1, 1A, 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 2A and finally 3.

I don't mean to do a disservice to the Scottish, but Scotland really isn't very good at junction numbers.
Image

We've got all the right junction numbers...just not necessarily in the right order...
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Altnabreac »

orudge wrote:
Altnabreac wrote:Looking at the map though it does raise a wee trivia question. Is there a stretch of motorway in SABRE territory that is as inaccurately numbered as the M90 now is? J3 Halbeath being in reality the 8th (or 9th) junction from the M9 / M90 split
The bus-only exit is only accessible from the A90, so I don't think would count here.

The junction numbering is just about as good as the M876 numbering that Chris refers to on his site - " Follow the junction numbers in order and you'll find yourself counting 5, 1, 2, 8, 7, 3!" :)

On an unrelated note, it appears the Google Maps satellite imagery of the Forth Road Bridge area is so out of date the M9 Spur (as it was) still terminates at a roundabout with the A8000!
Was going to counter with M8 Junction 23 only being accessible from the M74 but to be fair eastbound you can access the M8.
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by wrinkly »

Two notices in today's Edinburgh Gazette:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2951983
Road Traffic Acts
TRANSPORT SCOTLAND
FORTH CROSSING ACT 2011 (ASP 2)
NOTICE OF DESIGNATION OF A SPECIAL ROAD

The Scottish Ministers, in exercise of the powers conferred by section 11(1) and (2) of the Forth Crossing Act 2011, designate the following new lengths of road, as set out in schedule 3 of the said 2011 Act, as special roads:-

1. Work No. N47, to be known as the M90 southbound on-slip road at Admiralty Interchange within the local authority area of Fife.

2. Work No. N46, to be known as the M90 northbound off-slip road at Admiralty Interchange within the local authority area of Fife.

3. Work No. N1b, to be known as the M90 from Inverkeithing to Admiralty Interchange within the local authority area of Fife.

4. Work No. N1a, to be known as the M90 from the Queensferry Crossing to Inverkeithing within the local authority area of Fife.

5. Work No. B1, to be known as the M90 at the Queensferry Crossing at the Firth of Forth.

6. Work No. S1c, to be known as the M90 from Queensferry Junction to the Queensferry Crossing within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

7. Work No. N14a, to be known as the M90 southbound off-slip road at Ferrytoll Junction within the local authority area of Fife.

8. Work No. N2b, to be known as the M90 northbound on-slip road at Ferrytoll Junction within the local authority area of Fife.

9. Work No. N12, to be known as the M90 southbound on-slip road at Ferrytoll Junction within the local authority area of Fife.

10. Work No. N9a, to be known as the M90 northbound off-slip road at Ferrytoll Junction within the local authority area of Fife.

11. Work No. S7a, to be known as the M90 southbound off-slip road at Queensferry Junction within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

12. Work No. S9b, to be known as the M90 northbound on-slip road at Queensferry Junction within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

where the M90 is the M90/A90 Edinburgh – Inverkeithing Trunk Road, all as shown in the Parliamentary Plans that accompanied the said 2011 Act.

This designation takes effect on 31 January 2018, which is also the day of opening the new lengths of special road to traffic falling within classes I and II of the classes of traffic set out in schedule 3 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.

In accordance with section 12(3) of the said 2011 Act, those lengths of road shall also become trunk road on that date.

Copies of schedule 3 of the said 2011 Act and the Parliamentary Plans may be inspected, free of charge, during normal business hours, from 24 January 2018 to 31 January 2018 at the offices of Transport Scotland, Buchanan House, Glasgow, G4 0HF.

W S MINTO, A member of the staff of the Scottish Ministers

Transport Scotland, Buchanan House, 58 Port Dundas Road, Glasgow G4 0HF.

11 January 2018
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2951973
Road Traffic Acts
TRANSPORT SCOTLAND
FORTH CROSSING ACT 2011 (ASP 2)
NOTICE OF DESIGNATION OF A SPECIAL ROAD

The Scottish Ministers, in exercise of the powers conferred by section 11(1) and (2) of the Forth Crossing Act 2011, designate the following new lengths of road, as set out in schedule 3 of the said 2011 Act, as special roads:-

1. Work No. S8b, to be known as the A90 southbound on-slip road at Queensferry Junction within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

2. Work No. S10a, to be known as the A90 northbound on-slip road at Queensferry Junction within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

3. Work No. S1b, to be known as the A90 from Echline to Queensferry Junction within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

4. Work No. S1a, to be known as the A90 from Scotstoun Junction to Echline within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

5. Work No. S57, to be known as the eastbound carriageway of the A90 at Scotstoun Junction within the local authority area of the City of Edinburgh.

where the A90 is the A90 Edinburgh – Inverkeithing Trunk Road, all as shown in the Parliamentary Plans that accompanied the said 2011 Act.

This designation takes effect on 31 January 2018, which is also the day of opening the new lengths of special road to traffic falling within classes I, II and IV of the classes of traffic set out in schedule 3 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.

In accordance with section 12(3) of the said 2011 Act, these lengths of road shall also become trunk road on that date.

Copies of schedule 3 of the said 2011 Act and the Parliamentary Plans may be inspected, free of charge, during normal business hours, from 24 January 2018 to 31 January 2018 at the offices of Transport Scotland, Buchanan House, Glasgow, G4 0HF.

W S MINTO, A member of the staff of the Scottish Ministers

Transport Scotland, Buchanan House, 58 Port Dundas Road, Glasgow G4 0HF.

11 January 2018
Phil
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Re: Forth Replacement Crossing

Post by Phil »

Duncan macknight wrote:Queensferry crossing to become a motorway on the 1st February. Hopefully this will mean a removal of that silly wee bit of the A90 and it too becoming motorway?
Nope

For that 'wee bit of the A90' to become a Motorway, you would also have to make the rest of the South Queensferry by-pass back to the B924 a Motorway too. This would inevitably push non-Motorway traffic onto the B924 through South Queesferry itself - which would not be popular with the locals. Indeed the most recent publications from Transport Scotland specifically mention this.
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