A555 Stockport news

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Bryn666
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:28 The best I think the A6 bypass can achieve in strategic terms is take A34 traffic off the M60 and out of Cheadle. Even for that it needs to be grade separated. Workings follow.

M60 J25 to Handforth Dean at 8am:
8.5 miles via M60 and A34. 12-20mins, 16 mins midpoint. 26-43mph, 35mph midpoint
10.1 miles via A6 bypass and A555. Requires 42mph mean speed to match M60+A34, which is far from credible on a 50mph route with frequent at-grade junctions.

Stockport Council presumably know this and never intended for the A6 bypass to be anything more than a development opportunity for Stockport.
You aren't applying human factors here, people are not robots, and they just don't make those calculations when driving. If they want to go the fastest way they'll do whatever Google Maps tells them. Otherwise they'll pick the route they find least stressful regardless of the journey length or time.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

Some people find motorways stressful and avoid them, that's true. But the vast majority will take the faster route even if it involves a motorway.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Barkstar »

I don't think getting traffic from Bredbury to the airport is or every was a primary reason for finishing the A555 from Hazel Grove to the M60 - nor were any of the previous plans. The section should allow northbound traffic from the A6 and A523 to gain the M60 without going into stockport town centre. Of course if they festoon it with junctions that wouldn't be ideal - it really only needs to connect with the A626, which would relieve the south eastern side of the town of the traffic wanting the M60. If weight restrictions were to be used judiciously at least the majority of HGV traffic would by-pass the town centre.

I don't think this last section will open up development land either - that is more likely to happen on the recently open section and will doubtless meet with a lot of protests given the wealthy areas it passes through. The development at the old Woodford aircraft factory wasn't popular but was inevitable in the circumstances.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:56 Some people find motorways stressful and avoid them, that's true. But the vast majority will take the faster route even if it involves a motorway.
The same types would probably hate an at-grade A road just as much - I know people who won't go near 'fast' roads full stop... :confused:

As Barkstar has said, Stockport planners might want to fill the Goyt valley with houses but the locals don't, the new road literally just needs a GSJ with the A626 and then straight to the M60. Bredbury Tunnel as well, an open cutting there would just be needless antagonisation of locals.

M60 J24-25 will need to be D4 soon enough, even before you factor in the still ludicrous fantasy 25 mile tunnel from Sheffield...
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by poshbakerloo »

jackal wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 17:41 High quality drawings of the 2006 plans start at p. 38 of the link below. These are the most recent version so far as I know, and were supported by local councils until the government announced last year that they would not fund the scheme.

http://www.semmms.info/wp-content/uploa ... ndices.pdf
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 16:42 Suddenly that half a billion pricetag for the half-baked A555 seems more appealing than 10 years of construction and a billion+ price tag to replace an urban motorway with an even bigger one.
That would do nothing for the M60. The airport is 40% further via A555+A6(M). Even A34 traffic would continue to take the shorter and faster route along the M60 and through Cheadle.
Barkstar wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 17:01 So what's the alternative? Just putting up with it?
A less terrible design, e.g. speed above 50mph and actual GSJs rather than quasi-GSJs that cost about the same but make everyone stop at traffic lights.

Obligatory sheesh: https://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/a6m/maps/
The M60 A6(M) Link would help places like Macclesfield access the eastern side of the M60. A lot of traffic is funneled up the A34 north and once you get north of the A555 on the A34 its terribly busy with the Gatley junction causing chaos. All this traffic is the funneled via the middle of Stockport which is awful too!
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by avtur »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:42
jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:28 The best I think the A6 bypass can achieve in strategic terms is take A34 traffic off the M60 and out of Cheadle. Even for that it needs to be grade separated. Workings follow.

M60 J25 to Handforth Dean at 8am:
8.5 miles via M60 and A34. 12-20mins, 16 mins midpoint. 26-43mph, 35mph midpoint
10.1 miles via A6 bypass and A555. Requires 42mph mean speed to match M60+A34, which is far from credible on a 50mph route with frequent at-grade junctions.

Stockport Council presumably know this and never intended for the A6 bypass to be anything more than a development opportunity for Stockport.
You aren't applying human factors here, people are not robots, and they just don't make those calculations when driving. If they want to go the fastest way they'll do whatever Google Maps tells them. Otherwise they'll pick the route they find least stressful regardless of the journey length or time.
Another thought to add to the human factors element is that (in my experience) it is very much a matter of people's perceptions, not necessarily the reality, of the situation that matters. If people make a choice based on whatever factors they want to take into account then they will do that wanting to feel it provides the best outcome for themselves. Once they've made that choice they will interpret any factors they encounter in a way that justifies their decision. There may be reasons why another would disagree with them, who takes a different view of the same situation, that doesn't matter, it is a matter of the original person's perception that is important to themselves.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:41 M60 J24-25 will need to be D4 soon enough, even before you factor in the still ludicrous fantasy 25 mile tunnel from Sheffield...
Doubt they'll do that without widening the M60 in Stockport, which I believe is actually busier.

The best that can be hoped for in the next ten years are more local fixes like the TOTSO at J25 and weaving at J2-3. Here's my effort for the latter:

M60 J2-3 - Copy.jpg
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 14:33
Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:41 M60 J24-25 will need to be D4 soon enough, even before you factor in the still ludicrous fantasy 25 mile tunnel from Sheffield...
Doubt they'll do that without widening the M60 in Stockport, which I believe is actually busier.

The best that can be hoped for in the next ten years are more local fixes like the TOTSO at J25 and weaving at J2-3. Here's my effort for the latter:


M60 J2-3 - Copy.jpg
On safety grounds alone that particular scheme should be a priority, but I'm sure the bean counters will come up with myriad reasons why "smart technology" (it already has ramp metering and it makes no difference) will fix it.

Plus replacing the Manchester Road bridge gives the active travel campaigners a boost as they want the old A34 there to be dedicated more to active travel, that bridge is the constraint to achieving that aim.

ETA: my only suggested changes would be allowing access to Roscoe's Spur from the A34 entry (as this functions as a bit of a Cheadle Bypass at present), and moving the westbound merge a bit further east so there is 800m between there and the M56, which is very generous by that bit of the M60's standards...
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by avtur »

jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 14:33
... Doubt they'll do that without widening the M60 in Stockport, which I believe is actually busier....
How could the M60 through the town centre be widened, passing under the railway viaduct must surely be the limiting factor?
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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avtur wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 21:03
jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 14:33
... Doubt they'll do that without widening the M60 in Stockport, which I believe is actually busier....
How could the M60 through the town centre be widened, passing under the railway viaduct must surely be the limiting factor?
Not a lot of room, but not zero.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Truvelo »

Big L wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 21:08 Not a lot of room, but not zero.
If the barriers were mounted tight against the viaduct it should be possible to squeeze four lanes through there.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by avtur »

Truvelo wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 21:12
Big L wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 21:08 Not a lot of room, but not zero.
If the barriers were mounted tight against the viaduct it should be possible to squeeze four lanes through there.
It is already a squeeze with three lanes ... and no shoulders, I wouldn't want to even think of four lanes, especially when you consider how close the near by entry/exit points are. Aerial views do not show the viaduct arches clearly. I'd put money in there never being a four-lane option.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Big L »

When I generated the google link it was from my laptop in 3d mode, so it showed the arches.

Beyond the hatching and barrier and fence on the westbound carriageway there is a small gap. If there was concrete central barrier either side of the viaduct the metal barrier against the viaduct pier could probably go, giving a few more inches.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by c2R »

In a fantasy scenario,I'd put collector distributor lanes in and utilise the adjacent arches.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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Big L wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 21:29 When I generated the google link it was from my laptop in 3d mode, so it showed the arches.

Beyond the hatching and barrier and fence on the westbound carriageway there is a small gap. If there was concrete central barrier either side of the viaduct the metal barrier against the viaduct pier could probably go, giving a few more inches.
As someone who has used that piece of road, 100's if not 1000's of times I'd say that if the conversation runs to a 'a few more inches' that is simply not enough, it is already a squeeze.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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I suppose there reaches a stage when adjacent arches are used for C/D lanes that it will be cheaper to trunk the A555 and upgrade it to how it should have been.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Chris5156 »

avtur wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 22:54As someone who has used that piece of road, 100's if not 1000's of times I'd say that if the conversation runs to a 'a few more inches' that is simply not enough, it is already a squeeze.
It's a squeeze by the standards of the time it was built, but nowadays we're pushing three lanes through bridges on the A1 Gateshead Western Bypass that were only designed to accommodate two. Highways England will cut all sorts of corners to get an extra lane through.

You can see here that the northern arch currently carries three full-width lanes, a bit of acceleration lane that becomes a half-width hard shoulder, and two narrow verges, one of which carries a barrier.

The current paved width is likely therefore 3.6m + 3.6m + 3.6m + 2m = 12.8m. Without even widening the carriageway, you could reallocate that to permit four lanes at 3.6m + 3.2m + 3m + 3m. Concrete barriers on both approaches, becoming a thin layer of protection against the brickwork of the viaduct, might let you get rid of the verges for extra paved width; indeed just 60cm extra gets you an entirely acceptable 3.6 + 3.6 + 3.2 + 3m.

That's supposition, of course, not based on an actual measurement of the road width - but the point is just that you cannot overestimate how much HE are willing to bend the rules to get a fourth lane without widening!

The southern arch, I note, carries three lanes, a nearly-full-width hard shoulder, verges, barriers, and a wooden fence with more space behind it. Squeezing four lanes through there would be much less difficult.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Herned »

avtur wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 22:54 As someone who has used that piece of road, 100's if not 1000's of times I'd say that if the conversation runs to a 'a few more inches' that is simply not enough, it is already a squeeze.
I would say that given what HE have done elsewhere, there is easily room for a fourth lane through the viaduct
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

The arches are some 19.2m wide. The impression of space being tight is simply due to the numerous barriers placed inside the arches, such as this wooden fence, which as you can see has significant unused space behind it. So westbound is very easy - even four full width lanes+HS only requires them to move back the 'garden fence'.

Eastbound is much tighter as there's a 20th century brick retaining wall inside the arch on the nearside. Even so the carriageway width is 13.6m and curbed on the inside. So the 'lazy' version is to just use the existing carriageway (strengthening HS if necessary) with four lanes of 3.4m width (or 3.6, 3.4, 3.3, 3.3) and 50mph limit. There is, however, space on both sides between the carriageway and brickwork that could be eaten up to make slightly wider lanes and increased speed limit. This is achievable using modern concrete barriers flush to the bricks rather than metal dangling out in front. Or for the 'max' option, move the brick wall back for full lane width and HS.

Westbound the merge from J1 would have to be curtailed by 15m, which makes no difference really as it's too narrow to fit a car at that point. Probably the bridge over Travis Bow would have to be widened but that's par for the course. Or just be lazy again and drop/gain a lane at J1.

In any case, it's not a question of whether 4 lanes can be done, but of how much they're willing to spend doing it and accordingly the configuration and speed of the finished article.

[The difference in my and Chris's estimates for the eastbound carriageway is mostly down to the HS+merge, which Google Maps satellite shows around 2.7m rather than 2m. Otherwise I agree with everything he said!]
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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The modern retaining wall could conceivably be removed to gain additional space - on the construction of the new road through the other arch it looks like they took back the bridge to the brickwork

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