A555 Stockport news

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ABB125
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by ABB125 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 16:42
jackal wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 16:41 Not to mention I'm moving Lane 1 2m closer to retaining walls and other visual barriers, haha. Still I think 60 might be possible. Or they could do some actual engineering and replace structures, widen cuts, etc and restore full width lanes and FSSD. Sacrilege, I know.
Suddenly that half a billion pricetag for the half-baked A555 seems more appealing than 10 years of construction and a billion+ price tag to replace an urban motorway with an even bigger one.
What is this A555 scheme? I can't seem to find any information about it from a quick search.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Bryn666 »

It's the much debated and planned/replanned link from the A6 to the M60.

It started life as the M66/A6(M) Bredbury-Offerton Bypass before being cancelled and reintroduced as an at-grade dual carriageway much like the recently completed sections of the A555.

The current status is unknown because the government have declined funding and therefore it's back into development cycles. There's quite a vociferous local campaign against it but given "no road" means leaving the A6 as it is, which people also don't want either, there is a whiff of cakeism.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

High quality drawings of the 2006 plans start at p. 38 of the link below. These are the most recent version so far as I know, and were supported by local councils until the government announced last year that they would not fund the scheme.

http://www.semmms.info/wp-content/uploa ... ndices.pdf
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 16:42 Suddenly that half a billion pricetag for the half-baked A555 seems more appealing than 10 years of construction and a billion+ price tag to replace an urban motorway with an even bigger one.
That would do nothing for the M60. The airport is 40% further via A555+A6(M). Even A34 traffic would continue to take the shorter and faster route along the M60 and through Cheadle.
Barkstar wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 17:01 So what's the alternative? Just putting up with it?
A less terrible design, e.g. speed above 50mph and actual GSJs rather than quasi-GSJs that cost about the same but make everyone stop at traffic lights.

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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by xfield »

A local Facebook group has reported notices going up around the A555 for a new 70 mph speed limit. Did some searching and found this:

https://www.stockport.gov.uk/proposed-t ... peed-limit

I can't figure out what's changing - they talk about applying limits where the same limits already apply, and the other thing that stands out is it describes "70 mph speed limit" rather than "national speed limit" which is currently applied in the original centre section.

Can anybody decode what is actually changing here?
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by xfield »

On second thoughts, perhaps they're just tidying up legal notices to match where the signs were installed - rather than where they were intended to be installed? :laugh:
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Big L »

What in the world of "I'm clever with acronyms" does FSSD mean?
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Bryn666 »

Big L wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 19:17 What in the world of "I'm clever with acronyms" does FSSD mean?
Forward sight stopping distance. It's why the M5 has giant hatched out areas as you go around the bends, so you can see around the corner and maintain a minimum visibility distance.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Big L »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 19:36
Big L wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 19:17 What in the world of "I'm clever with acronyms" does FSSD mean?
Forward sight stopping distance. It's why the M5 has giant hatched out areas as you go around the bends, so you can see around the corner and maintain a minimum visibility distance.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by welly_j »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:24
c2R wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:08 It's pretty poor signage at the airport end, yes - each time I've used it people are always in the wrong lane, and trying to change at the last minute, as it isn't clear where you need to go; a situation compounded by the usual airport traffic issues of people unfamiliar with the area in hire cars etc. coupled with taxi and private hire vehicles travelling at speed knowing exactly where they want to be going...
The junctions on the A555 were all designed by someone who clearly has no idea of how traffic behaves.

The western end should have been a GSJ with the A555 free-flowing seamlessly onto the M56 spur, with the T2 roundabout forming the main airport entrance with all the access roads coming off that. What we have instead is a major primary route (for that is what it is) effectively giving way to an airport entrance.

Especially as anyone with local knowledge coming from the East still uses the old Ringway Road to access T1/T3, and with the current T2 expansion, T1 is planned to be demolished.

As for the M56 signs - no-one bothered to ask HE for a gantry sign upgrade so it didn't happen. Looking at the rest of the signs along the route, are you surprised?
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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jackal wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 17:41
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 16:42 Suddenly that half a billion pricetag for the half-baked A555 seems more appealing than 10 years of construction and a billion+ price tag to replace an urban motorway with an even bigger one.
That would do nothing for the M60. The airport is 40% further via A555+A6(M). Even A34 traffic would continue to take the shorter and faster route along the M60 and through Cheadle.
Further doesn't necessarily mean slower- at the evening peak, the M56>M60E can be very congested - I'd certainly consider routing via the A555 in such a scenario.

Just in the same way that you would use the M60 to go from Denton to Preswich rather than driving through the city.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

c2R wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 07:46
jackal wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 17:41
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 16:42 Suddenly that half a billion pricetag for the half-baked A555 seems more appealing than 10 years of construction and a billion+ price tag to replace an urban motorway with an even bigger one.
That would do nothing for the M60. The airport is 40% further via A555+A6(M). Even A34 traffic would continue to take the shorter and faster route along the M60 and through Cheadle.
Further doesn't necessarily mean slower- at the evening peak, the M56>M60E can be very congested - I'd certainly consider routing via the A555 in such a scenario.

Just in the same way that you would use the M60 to go from Denton to Preswich rather than driving through the city.
The design speed is 50 mph with a dozen signalised junctions. You'd do well to average 30 mph in the peak. So the average speed in the peak on the M56+M60 would have to be in the region of 20mph for the A555 to be competitive. It's far higher than that.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Bryn666 »

Peak speed on the M60 through Stockport is between 20 and 30mph. On the A6 it's below 10mph.

Off peak it is 50+ so yes if you're going to the airport at 3 in the morning or lunchtime you'll use the motorway but only if you started north of Stockport. You wouldn't drive up through the A6 to come back south. Even pre-A555 you'd have gone west across Bramhall and Woodford.

Even with the A6-M60 section at peak times traffic from the north east will have Hobson's choice because the queue to go through Stockport stretches past J24 anyway so to either get onto the A555 or the M56 will involve sitting in traffic.

The strategic corridor is needed but we also have to be realistic that we also need local traffic reduction measures in conjunction with it. There's no point making the A6 quiet if it just means people who don't drive decide to start doing so and make it as busy as it was pre-bypass. There's sufficient corridor space for a high quality express bus route from Hazel Grove into Manchester and the A6 itself should be made non-primary beyond the A555 into the city centre.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by c2R »

I agree with what Bryn is saying here - I have been in queues going nowhere on that section of the M60 e/b many times. There is presently a large amount of rat-running of traffic through suburbanised areas south of Manchester. There is a need for a replacement link for regional traffic to allow for urban realm improvements throughout the area. The A6 is a prime candidate for this, as road space can be reallocated, and substantial urban redevelopments could take place - to improve housing and retail on and around the road.

Essentially, there is currently a lot of through traffic that shouldn't be there but that has no realistic alternative. And yes, I do realise the project is a watered down development route, rather than what should be being built,but that's one for the planning policy thread.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

Everyone knows the M60 is congested.

Everyone also knows the A6 bypass would be nice for the A6.

But there is not really any connection between these issues. It's like trying to relieve the M25 by bypassing the A10 in Cheshunt.

A lot of it comes down to the fact that Bredbury to the airport interchange feels like it should be equally far via A555+A6 bypass as via M60/M56. I used to think that, but then I actually measured it, and A555+A6 bypass is a whopping 50% further. It's the kind of geographical illusion that can only be lifted by measuring it yourself. Try it! The A6 bypass will then look a lot less like the solution to the M60's problems.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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Bryn666 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 08:37The strategic corridor is needed but we also have to be realistic that we also need local traffic reduction measures in conjunction with it. There's no point making the A6 quiet if it just means people who don't drive decide to start doing so and make it as busy as it was pre-bypass. There's sufficient corridor space for a high quality express bus route from Hazel Grove into Manchester and the A6 itself should be made non-primary beyond the A555 into the city centre.
There are some quick wins to be had on the railway too. It's ludicrous that Bramhall is only 1tph in either direction, for example, and roughly 1tp3h on Sundays.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:27 Everyone knows the M60 is congested.

Everyone also knows the A6 bypass would be nice for the A6.

But there is not really any connection between these issues. It's like trying to relieve the M25 by bypassing the A10 in Cheshunt.

A lot of it comes down to the fact that Bredbury to the airport interchange feels like it should be equally far via A555+A6 bypass as via M60/M56. I used to think that, but then I actually measured it, and A555+A6 bypass is a whopping 50% further. It's the kind of geographical illusion that can only be lifted by measuring it yourself. Try it! The A6 bypass will then look a lot less like the solution to the M60's problems.
Distance doesn't bother people, it's perception of movement. So if they know the M60 feels chock solid, they'll use the longer A-road even if the time saving is marginal because they feel like they're making progress. It's why people from the NW of Manchester often take to the east side of the M60 to get to Stockport in the first place even though it's nearly always longer mileage wise going that way - because it flows better than the west side.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

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jackal wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 09:27 Everyone knows the M60 is congested.

Everyone also knows the A6 bypass would be nice for the A6.

But there is not really any connection between these issues. It's like trying to relieve the M25 by bypassing the A10 in Cheshunt.

A lot of it comes down to the fact that Bredbury to the airport interchange feels like it should be equally far via A555+A6 bypass as via M60/M56. I used to think that, but then I actually measured it, and A555+A6 bypass is a whopping 50% further. It's the kind of geographical illusion that can only be lifted by measuring it yourself. Try it! The A6 bypass will then look a lot less like the solution to the M60's problems.
Did you know it's almost as quick, sticking to the speed limits, if traffic is clear to go from Denton to Didsbury via the M60, M56, and A555 as it is to go straight on down the A6 currently? The difference is 2 minutes - so it's not all about distance.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

As I have repeatedly said it's a matter of distance plus speed.

Google Maps has M60 J25 to Manchester airport via M60 and M56 at 8am or 5pm as 10-14mins. It's 8.6 miles. So that's 37-52mph, midpoint is 45mph.

A6 bypass/A555 is 12 miles to get to the same point. So you would need to average 63mph to achieve a similar journey time. This is on a road that's predominantly 50mph speed limit with around 15 signalised junctions. In reality you'd do well to manage a 30mph average.

Adjust the numbers as you see fit but there's no way the A555 route would come out as a competitive route. A longer, slower bypass has never worked in the history of the world.
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by Truvelo »

Even if the missing section from Hazel Grove to Bredbury is built I don't see any through traffic between Bedbury and the airport using the A555. The only time this will be a viable through route is when there's an incident on the M60 with delays long enough that the A555 will be quicker. However if the A555 ends up absorbing motorway traffic due to an incident or closure the at-grade junctions will be backed up anyway so you'll be stuffed whichever route you choose and other roads such as the A560 will also be busy with ratrunners finding alternatives :@
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Re: A555 Stockport news

Post by jackal »

The best I think the A6 bypass can achieve in strategic terms is take A34 traffic off the M60 and out of Cheadle. Even for that it needs to be grade separated. Workings follow.

M60 J25 to Handforth Dean at 8am:
8.5 miles via M60 and A34. 12-20mins, 16 mins midpoint. 26-43mph, 35mph midpoint
10.1 miles via A6 bypass and A555. Requires 42mph mean speed to match M60+A34, which is far from credible on a 50mph route with frequent at-grade junctions.

Stockport Council presumably know this and never intended for the A6 bypass to be anything more than a development opportunity for Stockport.
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