A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

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AAndy
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by AAndy »

Helvellyn wrote:
AAndy wrote:
On another note, the bypass seems to be chugging ahead a bit further south.
Didn't think that had got started yet (the airport link road is well under way but that's to the north of Poynton).
I thought I wrote North :? ... yes, North....but I did think it was the bypass all the same. Thanks for that.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Helvellyn »

AAndy wrote:
Helvellyn wrote:
AAndy wrote:
On another note, the bypass seems to be chugging ahead a bit further south.
Didn't think that had got started yet (the airport link road is well under way but that's to the north of Poynton).
I thought I wrote North :? ... yes, North....but I did think it was the bypass all the same. Thanks for that.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Jim606 »

The two main criticisms against 'Shared Space' (Poynton included) is that they are not safe for the elderly, blind and disabled and that they don't provide good facilities for cycling (the problems are that they don't acknowledge the dominance of vehicular flow lines, provide more clearly demarcated / protected crossing points and dedicated cycle lanes). 'Shared Space' only really works when traffic flow is very low i.e. similar to cars in a pedestrianised area. The purpose of 'constructive criticism' is to look at things which the designers may not have seen or envisaged in their original plans. This is so subsequent schemes can take these matters into account. There are two recent videos on YouTube look at these two areas in a little more detail. One is focuses on Coventry and the other Assen in the Netherlands. Both these points are well made.

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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Jeni »

I've traditionally been a fan of the Poynton shared space, however in the last couple of months, traffic has become unbearably bad, both at peak and off peak times. There have been no obvious changes, but perhaps there are a lot of people diverting to avoid A555 works? I know temporary traffic lights have been screwing up the A6 to a point where it's often quicker to head via Macclesfield and the Cat and Fiddle to Buxton.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Helvellyn »

Jeni wrote:I've traditionally been a fan of the Poynton shared space, however in the last couple of months, traffic has become unbearably bad, both at peak and off peak times. There have been no obvious changes, but perhaps there are a lot of people diverting to avoid A555 works? I know temporary traffic lights have been screwing up the A6 to a point where it's often quicker to head via Macclesfield and the Cat and Fiddle to Buxton.
The temporary lights have been awful (I gave up getting in to work one day), but since they've been confined to 9:30 to 3:30 the A6 has been no worse than usual at those times. My SatNav keeps on showing jams between Hazel Grove and Macclesfield so I've avoided that way, I've assumed that there are similar works going on there.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Jeni »

Helvellyn wrote:My SatNav keeps on showing jams between Hazel Grove and Macclesfield so I've avoided that way, I've assumed that there are similar works going on there.
I haven't heard that there were TTLs planned for the A523 just yet, though I have been out of the country for a week. The jams you're seeing are probably Poynton and people avoiding the A6.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by benhb »

AAndy wrote:Driven, no, crawled through Poynton a few times recently, the first time I've been there since it was done.

All I can say is how on earth were they allowed to get away with it, on such a major road.

It must have cost a heck of a lot of public money yet all other roads in the area are still in a bad state of repair.


Its all non-standard stuff too and must be against highway regulations.

For the record, congestion in Poynton has reduced since 2008 (before the scheme was constructed). The scheme is all within the current highway regulations, and was fully audited in the usual way. It cost around £3 m., which included the complete renovation of the High Street (Park Lane).

On another note, the bypass seems to be chugging ahead a bit further south.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by c2R »

Interesting interview this morning on Today (about 07:20 for those people wanting to listen again on the Radio 4 iplayer) about a blind person's perspective of shared space...
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Mark Hewitt »

c2R wrote:Interesting interview this morning on Today (about 07:20 for those people wanting to listen again on the Radio 4 iplayer) about a blind person's perspective of shared space...
Yep, I heard it. As ever the officials point of view about it all being about sharing and give and take was shot down because it's nonsense. The very idea of sharing and give and take just degenerates into might is right.

That said, the idea of turning off traffic lights isn't a terrible one, but it doesn't mean that you can't have light controlled ped crossings too.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

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I've found another interesting critique of shared-space from the website http://cycalogical.blogspot.co.uk/2010/ ... space.html The author refers to 'shared-space' as 'scared-space' which is a term I've not heard before;
Sharing is a great concept, but it presupposes that the parties sharing are more or less equal in power, and there isn't one group of bullies in the playground that are so much bigger and tougher than the other kids that they are able to intimidate their way to the lion's share of what's on offer. The reason pavements work is everyone is of more or less equal strength and weight, and each individual is usually not capable of inflicting much damage on another (at least, unintentionally). Because of this, there's a protocol that's respected by almost all pedestrians, except on a Friday or Saturday night.

As soon as you introduce cars into the shared space, the dynamic changes. Even if most drivers act with care and consideration, it only takes one or two before pedestrians are anxiously looking about, grabbing their childrens hands and scurrying to the side the every time they hear a car engine. So you get a 'scared space', not a 'shared space'. However, it does appear that shared spaces have a better collision record than normal roads. Why? Maybe it's a reflection of how badly-designed roads have become, rather than 'shared spaces' being ideal. Roads have become places where the presumption of right of way heavily favours the driver, and the consequences of collisions are distributed almost exclusively onto the most vulnerable road users.

I'm going to suggest that shared space is actually a nonsense concept. It's used to justify spending a fortune on York stone slabs, granite setts, and generally digging up the road and giving it a makeover to keep highway engineers in a job. All you really need to do is get rid of the traffic. This is borne out by the DfT Shared Space Project Appraisal, which says "The willingness of pedestrians to use a Shared Space as intended depends on a combination of vehicular speed and flow and possibly on the relative flow of pedestrians to vehicles. The more favourable the conditions, the greater the tendency for pedestrians to occupy the space ...the percentage of pedestrians walking along the road reduced as vehicle flow increased. This study also found that the most influential factor on pedestrians’ willingness to walk in the road was the speed of motor vehicles...Many Shared Space schemes aim to increase the space available to pedestrians...The extent to which this is successful varies with the flow, and most particularly speed, of motorised traffic."
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Jim606 »

If people from different places keep saying the same thing, then there must be some validity to what they are saying. This post from Cycle Bath makes some more interesting points;
Modern shared space is no longer being built in the Netherlands as it creates too much danger for pedestrians and cyclists. Instead it is absolutely and ONLY being used on roads where motorised traffic has been removed or excluded. https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... way-round/

You do not build shared space on a through road. Saw Close (in Bath) is still a through road (of sorts) and it is important to ensure that the route cars take through the space is not a direct fast line. Ideally Cheap Street/Westgate Street would have rising bollards put in place to prevent motorised access during the day as has been done on Lower Borough Walls, to fantastic praise from the businesses on the street.

I’m also concerned that no clear route through the space is being provided for cyclists. However the fact the road is still clearly “marked” does give some hope, however the council must learn from Lower Borough Walls where they installed a 2m wide shared path in front of a very busy pasty shop, rather than a clearly defined contraflow cycle lane that should have been part of the road.

Unfortunately it feels that lessons are not being learned.
https://cyclebath.org.uk/2016/07/06/saw ... n-traffic/
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by WHBM »

This mess in Exhibition Road in London

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.49666 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.49776 ... 312!8i6656

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... SAFER.html

A through route from South Kensington up to Hyde Park. Parked cars mixed in with seating. A through bus route. Plenty of overseas visitors. What can look to pedestrians like a dual carriageway actually has two-way traffic on one side. A good number of drivers who think it's a normal 30mph road. Trade vans parked where the pavement used to be. Oh, and £30m budget squandered on it. 10,000 tonnes of stone imported from China.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by kit »

WHBM wrote:This mess in Exhibition Road in London
Having been there the problem with the "shared space" in Exhibition Road is that the north end doesn't actually function as a shared space, it's basically a road where traffic continues to drive quite fast because it is wide and straight and pedestrians and cyclists stick to the edges.

The ironic thing is we actually already have tens of thousands of shared spaces that function well 99.9% of the time. Zebra crossings. And if you can't reduce traffic volumes and speeds enough to make shared space work I think that elongated zebra crossings would be a way to proceed.

They have the advantage of the "rules" of pedestrian prioroty already being well known by drivers and restore pedestrian access to the "road". They also fulfil one of the aims of a shared space of making drivers slower and more cautious - without any priorities drivers assume priority because they are bigger, noisier and heavier. With that assumed priority removed power parity is partly restored.

It's not an ideal solution but it stops idiotic council design like that of Frideswide Square in Oxford, a supposed "shared space" but one with roundabouts where suddenly drivers have priority over others.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Mark Hewitt »

The Netherlands has the concept of guest streets. Which necessarily are access only by design but the priority rules are complete reversed with cars having to proceed at very slow speed and give way to pedestrians.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New

Post by WHBM »

Mark Hewitt wrote:The Netherlands has the concept of guest streets. Which necessarily are access only by design but the priority rules are complete reversed with cars having to proceed at very slow speed and give way to pedestrians.
Sounds just like our Play Streets of a generation ago.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

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This mess in Exhibition Road in London
Yes, quite right. When I was down in London a few months ago for a concert at the Royal Albert Hall I was able to take a much closer look at Exhibition Road. A decent dedicated cycle route could have been installed as part of the scheme, but cyclists were still having to 'take the lane' in order to use the road. This isn't shared space, but simply another version of what was there before, albeit one with fancy paving.
Cyclist taking the lane on Exhibition Road
Cyclist taking the lane on Exhibition Road
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by kit »

Jim606 wrote:A decent dedicated cycle route could have been installed as part of the scheme, but cyclists were still having to 'take the lane' in order to use the road.
Cycle provision in the UK is universally bad, either a) nothing or b) crappy rutted cycle track which gives way to every road/driveway/mouse trail or c) 2 ft painted lane which exempts vehicles from passing with any space at all.

But of course cyclists don't pay road tax/aren't wearing a helmet/aren't wearing hi-viz so any rights are forfeited especially in a shared space.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by ais523 »

I've seen two shared spaces.

One is Exhibition Road, the pilot/flagship scheme, and it doesn't really work as a shared space at all. One side of the road is basically used as an S2, and pedestrians avoid it / only cross with extreme care, with drivers acting as though they have priority. The other side is mostly used a car park and pedestrians walk along this section. If there were road markings enforcing this, rather than a shared space it would work better (just as well in most cases, and better because you don't get the occasional person who doesn't know better acting contrary to the requirements).

The other is in Longbridge town centre. Pretty much the only way I know it's a shared space is because it's full of "shared space" signs, because there are pavements marked out at the sides of the road (which pedestrians use), and vehicles driving closer to the centre, again treating it as an S2. It's basically a normal S2 in all but name, and I think most drivers are interpreting the "shared space" signs as identical to a "warning, pedestrians crossing" sign.
kit wrote:The ironic thing is we actually already have tens of thousands of shared spaces that function well 99.9% of the time. Zebra crossings. And if you can't reduce traffic volumes and speeds enough to make shared space work I think that elongated zebra crossings would be a way to proceed.
It may be a coincidence, but the flashing beacons at a zebra crossing and the flashing amber at a pelican crossing both have the same meaning: "whoever is currently on the junction has right of way". Perhaps we need to generalize that, rather than try to deal with the "space with no right of way rules" concept that different people interpret differently.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

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kit wrote: It's not an ideal solution but it stops idiotic council design like that of Frideswide Square in Oxford, a supposed "shared space" but one with roundabouts where suddenly drivers have priority over others.
Not roundabouts, sir. They're nasty, traditional, highway/traffic engineering measures. Thems are 'roundels' when they're in a shared space environment. Names, apparently, are everything - a bit like in olde time sorcery/magic.
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Re: A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

Post by Derek »

The thing about this debate is two extreme camps are arguing their positions and both have data to prove their point. That is because both are correct. This is one of those cases where some things work to improve safety and other work to make it worse.

I would say that on the whole the shared space idea does work. Traffic generally does slow and become more considerate and I would expect on the whole accidents decrease and therefore the space becomes safer on average. Problem is, it's the "on average" bit that causes the problem. As with all traffic it only takes one idiot/distracted driver/downright psychopath to cause mayhem.

So, do we have to build our streets as defensive zones to protect vulnerable people from the danger of traffic? The idea of going back to fences and the design approach of the 1960's is unlikely to be popular. Of course, I would argue that the only way to go is to ban traffic, perhaps it really does come down to that.

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