A523 Poynton - New "shared space" junction

[Reading]

I was standing in Oxford about a year ago looking at the plans on a fence and commented at the time it seemed silly there was no dedicated cycle lane as a free for all would be chaos with the volume of cycle/pedestrian traffic in that area.

In Reading the local disabled campaigners took the council to court as a "shared Use" junction is apparently impossible to use as a partially sighted person without asking a passer by for help (he failed to win) http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/readin ... r-11474034

[Johnathan404]

Looks like Dublin is getting a shared space outside College Green.

It will look a lot more pleasant than the existing bottleneck (especially with the Luas works), but as ever the detail will be key.

The main benefit being offered is that a shared space will be better for hosting community events.

[Jim606]

Looks like Dublin is getting a shared space outside College Green. It will look a lot more pleasant than the existing bottleneck (especially with the Luas works), but as ever the detail will be key. The main benefit being offered is that a shared space will be better for hosting community events.

As far as I am aware the same designated cycle path vs shared arguments have been taking place over in Ireland as well as the UK. Dutch cycle planners were even brought over to advise http://irishcycle.com/2017/03/16/shared ... t [/quote]

Now it seems that College Green is finally getting a defined cycle path;

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wa ... 91436.html

[Piatkow]

My observations based on a number of visits to Walthamstow:

The problem with "mini Holland" schemes over here is the lack of pedestrian awareness. The new cycle tracks just get treated as extensions to the footway and many cyclists use the narrowed carriageway which is now more dangerous due to the restricted space for passing. Not helped by the failure to "float" busy bus stops. Passengers arriving at Blackhorse Road station are expected to step out of the bus into a live cycle lane!

[RichardA626]

My observations based on a number of visits to Walthamstow:

The problem with "mini Holland" schemes over here is the lack of pedestrian awareness. The new cycle tracks just get treated as extensions to the footway and many cyclists use the narrowed carriageway which is now more dangerous due to the restricted space for passing. Not helped by the failure to "float" busy bus stops. Passengers arriving at Blackhorse Road station are expected to step out of the bus into a live cycle lane!

Wilmslow Road in Rusholme is like that!

[mikehindsonevans]

My observations based on a number of visits to Walthamstow:

The problem with "mini Holland" schemes over here is the lack of pedestrian awareness. The new cycle tracks just get treated as extensions to the footway and many cyclists use the narrowed carriageway which is now more dangerous due to the restricted space for passing. Not helped by the failure to "float" busy bus stops. Passengers arriving at Blackhorse Road station are expected to step out of the bus into a live cycle lane!

Stepping off a bus into/onto a cycle lane is a common experience in Copenhagen, where the road layout on many streets is set out as follows: traffic lane, bus lane, cycle lane, pavement ("sidewalk" for our cousins in the former Colonies).

You rapidly learn to look BOTH ways before stepping off the bus - it is self-policing and self-enforcing! As most human beings are reasonably intelligent (and respond to the pain of hitting/being hit by something solid), I would posit that pedestrians will rapidly learn to stay out of the cycle path - we just need a critical mass or cyclists using the cycle path - and, of course, the actual cycle path! How are things settling down on the Boris cycle superhighways in London?

Mike

[Jim606]

Further to our discussions. I don't think we've ever mentioned the 'shared-space' on the B6157 at Stanningley Bottom on the Leeds/Bfd cycle superhighway. This shared-space was apparently modelled on Poynton, but has run into a few problems; http://westleedsdispatch.com/stanningle ... tyconnect/

How do you solve a problem like Stanningley Bottom? 24 April 2017

Stanningley Bottom 'Shared-Space' on the B6157 as part of the CityConnect Leeds/Bfd Cycle Superhighway scheme

The sound of honking horns, squeaking breaks and the fast ebb and flow of traffic are a given for those working in and commuting around Stanningley Bottom. Phil Townsend, proprietor of Philip Nicholas barbers, is at his wits’ end over the mini roundabouts – known as roundels – that were built as part of the Cycle Superhighway which links Bradford and Leeds. He argues that the council has ignored the suggestions he made to reduce accidents on the road, despite his 2,000-strong petition to get the roundels changed.

ANNA RILEY went to Stanningley Bottom to find out how the council is looking to tackle traffic problems in the area – and whether the new measures will go far enough. The scheme; Leeds and Bradford councils approved the CityConnect cycle superhighway along with the West Yorkshire Combined Authority when Leeds hosted the Tour de France Grand Depart in 2014. The aim of the scheme – dubbed the ‘highway to health’ when it was announced – was to encourage more people to cycle and live healthier lives. The £29 million superhighway was intended to protect cyclists from the road and give them priority over cars at side road junctions. The 23km track runs from Church Bank in Bradford to Leeds city centre via Stanningley, Bramley and Armley. The stretch has been fraught with difficulties since it was unveiled in June 2016. Complaints have ranged from condemnation of the bollards and utilities boxes built in the middle of the path to grumbles over motorists who have used the track as a parking space.

The petition: Phil Townsend, whose barber shop faces on to the Stanningley Bottom roundels, says he has seen many near misses outside his shop and is worried for the safety of both cyclists and motorists using them. According to CityConnect, instead of isolating pedestrians, cars and bikes, the two roundels at Stanningley Bottom (that have no road markings or signs) were created to influence driver behaviour. This is through establishing an environment that takes the attention of drivers away from road markings and signage and reliance on signals and is meant to allow driver to make their own decisions by reading the situation. The roundels and shared space were based on the scheme in the town of Poynton in Cheshire. But Phil thinks that the lack of signage has created a hazard, due to nobody really knowing how to use the roundels. He says the council have done nothing to alleviate safety concerns he raised in a petition signed by 2,000 people in September last year, as reported by the Dispatch. Phil said: “The roundels are an absolute death trap. Nobody really knows how to use them and I’ve seen so many near misses outside my shop. “The honking of car horns is the soundtrack to my week and I’m really worried for people’s safety who are using the road. “The area is meant to be a shared space between motorists, cyclists and pedestrians, but the road here just isn’t wide enough for it. “I suggested some ways in which the roundels could be improved in order to save lives and prevent accidents, but the council haven’t really listened.” He thinks that the roundels should be coloured and that ‘rumble strips’ should be painted on the approach to them. Phil also argues that signage should be displayed which highlights that there are two roundels rather than one, along with an electronic sign, showing people their current speed on the approach to the roundels in order to encourage them to slow down to the speed limit of 20mph.

Watch here to see more of what Phil had to say:


A Leeds City Council spokesman from Cityconnect said: “Enhancement works are currently being developed for Stanningley Centre with the aim to improve driver compliance with the 20mph speed limit. This will involve replacing the existing contrast surfacing with a raised central margin with some textured material along the kerbside. “Due to the nature of the special materials needed to complete these works, it has not been possible to carry these works out over the winter. With the dryer weather now here we are looking to have the works on site as soon as our contractor is available.”

Councillor ‘chasing:’ Councillor Kevin Ritchie (Lab, Bramley & Stanningley) invited Mr Townsend to speak at a meeting with senior Highways Officers following his petition. He said: “It has taken a frustratingly long time to implement the changes at Stanningley Bottom following the feedback.“I have been chasing for when the implementation will be, as we still don’t have a date. “People do get confused at the roundels and don’t really know who has to give way.”

Council proposals: The proposals can be seen below and the changes include textured over-run areas, together with a larger central margin to make sure motorists are aware when they drive over them. It’s hoped the changes should motorists’ speeds on the approaches to the roundels so that by the time they are negotiating the un-marked junction they are driving at slower speeds.

Chris Way, Senior Traffic Engineer, said: “The proposal requires some new materials to be laid onto the carriageway to create the textured surfaces and low upstands which will encourage drivers to slow down through this area.“This requires the surface of the existing road to be dry and clean of contaminants, and so the work has been kept back until the end of the winter gritting season. “We are now looking to programme this work as soon as we can, and to make arrangements to inform businesses and the local community.”

[Debaser]

My observations based on a number of visits to Walthamstow:

The problem with "mini Holland" schemes over here is the lack of pedestrian awareness. The new cycle tracks just get treated as extensions to the footway and many cyclists use the narrowed carriageway which is now more dangerous due to the restricted space for passing. Not helped by the failure to "float" busy bus stops. Passengers arriving at Blackhorse Road station are expected to step out of the bus into a live cycle lane!

Stepping off a bus into/onto a cycle lane is a common experience in Copenhagen, where the road layout on many streets is set out as follows: traffic lane, bus lane, cycle lane, pavement ("sidewalk" for our cousins in the former Colonies).

You rapidly learn to look BOTH ways before stepping off the bus - it is self-policing and self-enforcing! As most human beings are reasonably intelligent (and respond to the pain of hitting/being hit by something solid), I would posit that pedestrians will rapidly learn to stay out of the cycle path - we just need a critical mass or cyclists using the cycle path - and, of course, the actual cycle path! How are things settling down on the Boris cycle superhighways in London?

Mike

Unfortunately these bus stop layouts even cause problems in Copenhagen. Floating bus stops with mini zebra raised crossings to the footway is probably the safest treatment currently available.

[kevjs]

Unfortunately these bus stop layouts even cause problems in Copenhagen. Floating bus stops with mini zebra raised crossings to the footway is probably the safest treatment currently available.

Depending on the traffic flows the Zebra might not even be needed - this works well enough in Nottingham https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.94787 ... 312!8i6656 but the buses are only every 20 minutes. Whole island can be full of kids in the morning rush hour though (it works even better now there is a bus shelter installed).

Alas this one further down is a bit too narrow and often has kids spilling into the cycle track
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.94680 ... 312!8i6656

On the newer stuff they are building there is even less space - the pavement ceases and pedestrians have to cross twice to get onto, then off, the Island. Not so convinced that will work well though.

[Debaser]

On the newer stuff they are building there is even less space - the pavement ceases and pedestrians have to cross twice to get onto, then off, the Island. Not so convinced that will work well though.

I believe there are similar layouts on the Leeds-Bradford CityConnect scheme. The big problem with them is that as engineers we do like to put crossings perpendicular to kerblines rather than follow desire lines, which makes the footway-island-footway crossings very convoluted and not the shortest route available.

[Barkstar]

I thought it might be worth giving an update, especially as I hadn't been through Poynton for a year or so. As has been much discussed the infrastructure was clearly never up to the job and was showing signs of failure within months of its completion. It would be nice to report that some remedial work had been done in response to the issues but it is still the same sorry mess. The blocks on the edges of the 'carriageway' that take most of the HGVs weight are now uniformly loose and/or broken with some repairs being done with tarmac

I guess the council are just ignoring it until the relief road opens, hoping that any subsequent repairs won't have to bear the weight of the HGVs, which they hope will no longer have to pass through the village. Good luck with that...

[Jim606]

The same old problems with shared-space.

I found this article from https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... acefaking/

But in the UK we seem to developed a curious alternative strategy (to Utrecht) that, as in the title of this post, I’m going to dub ‘placefaking’. It involves dressing up streets that continue to have a serious movement function as a ‘place’, and attempting to persuade us that these roads and streets are now ‘places’, despite the fact that they continue to carry significant volumes of motor traffic. (In its most extreme form, the implication is that ‘places’ need to have motor traffic flowing through them!)

Exhibition Road in Kensington and Chelsea is perhaps the most painful example of this phenomenon. A certain amount of effort has been employed in an attempt to persuade the public that this road – heavy with motor traffic, particularly at peak times – is now civic space, where pedestrians can linger at leisure in the ‘carriageway’. That stylish diagonal lines would encourage pedestrians to cross on natural desire lines, as they pleased.

Unfortunately, the basic problem here is that a ‘place’ function won’t fit; there is too much movement, and too much movement of a particular kind.

The bypass has been talked about for years. Plus, I and many others have always said; separate cycle-lanes needed to have been part of the shared-space scheme.

[Barkstar]

The same old problems with shared-space.

I found this article from https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... acefaking/

But in the UK we seem to developed a curious alternative strategy (to Utrecht) that, as in the title of this post, I’m going to dub ‘placefaking’. It involves dressing up streets that continue to have a serious movement function as a ‘place’, and attempting to persuade us that these roads and streets are now ‘places’, despite the fact that they continue to carry significant volumes of motor traffic. (In its most extreme form, the implication is that ‘places’ need to have motor traffic flowing through them!)

Exhibition Road in Kensington and Chelsea is perhaps the most painful example of this phenomenon. A certain amount of effort has been employed in an attempt to persuade the public that this road – heavy with motor traffic, particularly at peak times – is now civic space, where pedestrians can linger at leisure in the ‘carriageway’. That stylish diagonal lines would encourage pedestrians to cross on natural desire lines, as they pleased.

Unfortunately, the basic problem here is that a ‘place’ function won’t fit; there is too much movement, and too much movement of a particular kind.

It has been said many, many times before about what effect it might have on the scheme. Plus, I and many others have always said; separate cycle-lanes needed to have been part of the scheme.

I'm sure it can work well but you need to pick the right place to do it. And if it is the right place then I see no need for cycle lanes. The crossroads in Poynton was alway going to be a bad idea given the traffic levels. Combine that with a surface unable to cope with heavy vehicles and it's ended up with worst of all worlds.

[Debaser]

I'm sure it can work well but you need to pick the right place to do it. And if it is the right place then I see no need for cycle lanes. The crossroads in Poynton was alway going to be a bad idea given the traffic levels. Combine that with a surface unable to cope with heavy vehicles and it's ended up with worst of all worlds.

The right place for shared space is where pedestrians are in the overwhelming majority and motor vehicles are very few.

Where those conditions exist then the question ought that to be asked "Why can't we fully pedestrianise this space and keep all motor vehicles out (except for deliveries at restricted times)?". If those conditions do not exist then shared space shouldn't even be considered, as pedestrians will never feel confident enough to share those places where motor vehicles are present, but instead feel bullied to the periphery by the presence of too many motors. Either way, 'shared space' becomes a pointless intervention.

This doesn't even touch on shared space's apparent need for 'negotiation' and eye-contact between pedestrians and drivers and how this shouldn't pass a cursory application of the Equality Act 2010.

[traffic-light-man]

An almost shared space (but definitely a no-priority junction) on the A554 in Birkenhead opened recently near the Stena ferry terminal, and I took a walk around it yesterday.

It appears to be confusing to many, say the local rag (presumably having copy-and-pasted a few tweets and written 'slam' in the title, as seems to be the standard method for producing an article these days).

My personal observations were that many slowed right down, as is the idea. Quite a few made a roundabout style path through the junction at a variety of speeds, and a minority were just bombing it through at probably close to 40 mph with little consideration for anyone else. I didn't get to see it being used by the many pedestrians that will no doubt appear at college time, though!

I do think the former 2-lane approaches and signals probably have left a little legacy with those who fail to adjust their driving for anything, and so they're likely to be a key problem here, driving through it in the same way they always have.

Another interesting note was the use of what appeared to be some form of coloured road marking paint to make large chunks of the carriageway and footway light grey, including with red stripes on the footways in places (I forgot to get a snap of those unfortunately) and the swirly effect on the junction itself. I imagine that might get a bit slippy in the wet, but I'd hope that's been thought of when choosing the material!

They've also used Dutch-style speed hump markings, which was strange to see.

I'm interested to see how long it is before the buses and heavies (the Stena terminal is off the next junction along) take their toll on the block-paved carriageway surfacing and edging, as is often the case with these things, it would seem.

I'm not convinced this was quite the right location for something like this.

[fras]

If you can, try to find a movie on YouTube of somewhere like Manchester before WW1. What you see is "no priority" streets, with a few policemen trying to keep order. The traffic moves slowly so one would think there were no accidents or deaths. No a bit of it, there were regular road fatalities and would probably have been a lot more, but with horse-drawn traffic, I suspect the horses themselves stopped or slowed down when jaywalkers leapt in front of them.

[Chris5156]

I'm not convinced this was quite the right location for something like this.

Agreed. There is a place for this and I'm not sure Birkenhead found it.

There's also a way of doing it well and a way of doing it badly, and I'm not sure they got that right either. A shared space should not have visual cues that remind people of a normal road junction - Poynton made that silly mistake with its circular islands and even advance direction signs showing a roundabout symbol, despite protestations (in this very thread) from its designers that it wasn't a roundabout. This does it too.

Fundamentally, if you don't want people to treat it like a roundabout, don't paint circles on the ground. We live in a country full of roundabouts where drivers are conditioned to expect junctions to operate with roundabout priority rules. If you dropped a dinner plate in the middle of a crossroads most drivers would try and drive around it in a circle. I don't know how very highly qualified people doing this stuff for a living can so easily overlook that.

[Bryn666]

I don't know how very highly qualified people doing this stuff for a living can so easily overlook that.

Sometimes you can be too clever for your own good. Many of these recent "innovations" have very obvious consequences the supposed elite highway designers haven't thought of.

[Debaser]

Fundamentally, if you don't want people to treat it like a roundabout, don't paint circles on the ground. We live in a country full of roundabouts where drivers are conditioned to expect junctions to operate with roundabout priority rules. If you dropped a dinner plate in the middle of a crossroads most drivers would try and drive around it in a circle. I don't know how very highly qualified people doing this stuff for a living can so easily overlook that.

There's the rub. The designers do want drivers to use it as a roundabout and circulate clockwise, give priority to circulating vehicles, etc. But a roundabout is apparently too unsubtle for a public realm intervention. That's why they go for 'roundels' or statuary/sculptures, etc.

See; Frideswide Square, Oxford; Poynton; Gloucester.

[Bryn666]

Fundamentally, if you don't want people to treat it like a roundabout, don't paint circles on the ground. We live in a country full of roundabouts where drivers are conditioned to expect junctions to operate with roundabout priority rules. If you dropped a dinner plate in the middle of a crossroads most drivers would try and drive around it in a circle. I don't know how very highly qualified people doing this stuff for a living can so easily overlook that.

There's the rub. The designers do want drivers to use it as a roundabout and circulate clockwise, give priority to circulating vehicles, etc. But a roundabout is apparently too unsubtle for a public realm intervention. That's why they go for 'roundels' or statuary/sculptures, etc.

See; Frideswide Square, Oxford; Poynton; Gloucester.

The Gloucester example is just a pair of unmarked junctions separated by a statue though, there is no compulsion - indeed the 'footways' clearly say don't - to drive around the statue there.