Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

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Phil
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Phil »

KeithW wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 07:31
It should be pointed out that there are a number of toll bridges which have been around for a very long time and which charge tolls to provide funds for maintenance, there is nothing that prevents a bridge company continuing to charge tolls indefinitely.
In the case of Dartford yes there was!

As I said the original acts of Parliament authorising the construction of the bridges and tunnels were very specific - it would have been illegal to continue to charge motorists once the capital construction costs were paid.

NEW legislation was thus essential if the Government were to keep their nice little revenue generator and hence the Government ensured a fresh bill was laid before Parliament to do just that.

More widely the ability to continue to charge motorists for ongoing maintenance has to be factored into the authorising acts. If said acts include a stipulation that the tolls are to pay for capital construction costs then any half competent lawyer will quickly be able to prove the charging authority were acting illegally.

As to the question of whether motorists should pay for ongoing costs - in the UK have a long established system where those costs are funded by Central Government. Why should people have to pay to cross at Dartford and not at the Thelwall viaduct (M6), the Devils Punch Bowl Tunnel (A3) to name but two structures which are going to have higher maintenance costs than most of the rest of the strategic road network.

Its a different situation in places like France where road tolls are seen as the norm, even for pretty boring / cheap to build motorways as its clear the system as a whole is geared up to recouping such costs directly from motorists on a massive scale.

While I personally prefer the French model, I am also very much aware that ship has sailed over 50 years ago so to speak and as such attempts to impose road tolling retrospectively in the UK (outside of to fund the construction costs of major bridges / tunnels or true congestion charges to encourage public transport use in large cities) is not acceptable.
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KeithW
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by KeithW »

Phil wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 00:39
KeithW wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 07:31
It should be pointed out that there are a number of toll bridges which have been around for a very long time and which charge tolls to provide funds for maintenance, there is nothing that prevents a bridge company continuing to charge tolls indefinitely.
In the case of Dartford yes there was!

As I said the original acts of Parliament authorising the construction of the bridges and tunnels were very specific - it would have been illegal to continue to charge motorists once the capital construction costs were paid.

NEW legislation was thus essential if the Government were to keep their nice little revenue generator and hence the Government ensured a fresh bill was laid before Parliament to do just that.

More widely the ability to continue to charge motorists for ongoing maintenance has to be factored into the authorising acts. If said acts include a stipulation that the tolls are to pay for capital construction costs then any half competent lawyer will quickly be able to prove the charging authority were acting illegally.

As to the question of whether motorists should pay for ongoing costs - in the UK have a long established system where those costs are funded by Central Government. Why should people have to pay to cross at Dartford and not at the Thelwall viaduct (M6), the Devils Punch Bowl Tunnel (A3) to name but two structures which are going to have higher maintenance costs than most of the rest of the strategic road network.

Its a different situation in places like France where road tolls are seen as the norm, even for pretty boring / cheap to build motorways as its clear the system as a whole is geared up to recouping such costs directly from motorists on a massive scale.

While I personally prefer the French model, I am also very much aware that ship has sailed over 50 years ago so to speak and as such attempts to impose road tolling retrospectively in the UK (outside of to fund the construction costs of major bridges / tunnels or true congestion charges to encourage public transport use in large cities) is not acceptable.
I addressed this in my post and even gave references to the relevant acts of Parliament. Note that Estuarine crossings are typically treated differently to inland bridges and many are tolled.

See
Humber Bridge
Itchen Bridge
Mersey Tunnels
Tamar Bridge
Tyne Tunnel
Mersey Gateway

etc
SteveA30
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by SteveA30 »

Yes but only in England. If wales and Scotland can use a different model then so can we. It isn't a financial issue, it's just dressed up as one. It is one of attitude to money. England has the wrong attitude, the wrong philosophy. Same with hospital parking.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Scratchwood »

SteveA30 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:18 Yes but only in England. If wales and Scotland can use a different model then so can we. It isn't a financial issue, it's just dressed up as one. It is one of attitude to money. England has the wrong attitude, the wrong philosophy. Same with hospital parking.
Or maybe it's because Scotland and Wales are given more money per head by the UK government than England is...
Phil
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Phil »

Scratchwood wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 15:10
SteveA30 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:18 Yes but only in England. If wales and Scotland can use a different model then so can we. It isn't a financial issue, it's just dressed up as one. It is one of attitude to money. England has the wrong attitude, the wrong philosophy. Same with hospital parking.
Or maybe it's because Scotland and Wales are given more money per head by the UK government than England is...
Wales (aside from South Wales) and Scotland (aside from the Central belt) have a very low population but some of the most rugged terrain to be found in the British isles. Virtually everything from waste collection to schools costs more to do because you lose the economies of scale and need more resources to cover the same population.

Thus its entirely fair that when it comes to monies provided to Scotland or Wales by Westminster this should be reflected in what is paid out.

On the other hand things like hospital parking for visitors and staff should be free out of principle throughout the UK and it stinks that England is the only nation where this doesn't happen.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Phil »

KeithW wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 09:25
I addressed this in my post and even gave references to the relevant acts of Parliament. Note that Estuarine crossings are typically treated differently to inland bridges and many are tolled.

See
Humber Bridge
Itchen Bridge
Mersey Tunnels
Tamar Bridge
Tyne Tunnel
Mersey Gateway

etc
IIRC the Humber bridge tolls, like those at Dartford are supposed to cease when the Bridge construction costs are paid off. Due to low traffic volumes this hasn't happened - indeed fresh legislation had to be put in place because the authorising acts actually put a time limit on how long tolls could be charged and had they ended when originally scheduled the local authorities who make up the Bridge owners would have been landed with massive bill to pay!

The Itchen Bridge, Mersey Tunnels, and Tyne tunnel are all within urban areas - in such places its recognised that traffic should be discouraged and tolling helps with this so could be considered in the same vein as the London Congestion charge. In the case of the Tyne Tunnel, long distance strategic traffic should be heading round the western by-pass, just as long distance traffic should use Dartford and not the Blackwall tunnel in London.

The Tamar Bridge tolls perform a similar function and discourage car commuting into the city from the west.

The Mersey Gateway Bridge tolls only exist because of the failure of Central Government to do its job! There has long been a need to provide relief to the Sliver Jubilee bridge at Runcorn but central government continually refused to provide funding. The local authorities therefore promoted a tolled crossing as a means of getting something done as there was no way they could afford to pay for it themselves. In any case its another crossing where the authorising acts only allow the toll to be charged until construction costs have been paid off.
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KeithW
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by KeithW »

Phil wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:02 Wales (aside from South Wales) and Scotland (aside from the Central belt) have a very low population but some of the most rugged terrain to be found in the British isles. Virtually everything from waste collection to schools costs more to do because you lose the economies of scale and need more resources to cover the same population.

Thus its entirely fair that when it comes to monies provided to Scotland or Wales by Westminster this should be reflected in what is paid out.

On the other hand things like hospital parking for visitors and staff should be free out of principle throughout the UK and it stinks that England is the only nation where this doesn't happen.
Those who live in Northumberland, Cumberland and on the Yorkshire Moors and Dales might raise an eyebrow at that. Alston , the highest market town in England is 20 miles from anywhere that has more than a local coop supermarket and at 1000 ft above sea level is a might chilly at this time of year.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.81246 ... authuser=0
Phil
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Phil »

KeithW wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:18
Phil wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:02 Wales (aside from South Wales) and Scotland (aside from the Central belt) have a very low population but some of the most rugged terrain to be found in the British isles. Virtually everything from waste collection to schools costs more to do because you lose the economies of scale and need more resources to cover the same population.

Thus its entirely fair that when it comes to monies provided to Scotland or Wales by Westminster this should be reflected in what is paid out.

On the other hand things like hospital parking for visitors and staff should be free out of principle throughout the UK and it stinks that England is the only nation where this doesn't happen.
Those who live in Northumberland, Cumberland and on the Yorkshire Moors and Dales might raise an eyebrow at that. Alston , the highest market town in England is 20 miles from anywhere that has more than a local coop supermarket and at 1000 ft above sea level is a might chilly at this time of year.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.81246 ... authuser=0
You will always be able to cherry pick examples in England if you look hard enough - but the general principle still stands. It costs a lot more to provide the same set of statutory services in Wales or Scotland than it does in England.

If Northumberland finds that its costs are higher than say Hampshire due to the terrain, then the central Government grant from Westminster should reflect that - its not an argument to cut the funding to Scotland or Wales instead.
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trickstat
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by trickstat »

Phil wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:30
KeithW wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:18
Phil wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:02 Wales (aside from South Wales) and Scotland (aside from the Central belt) have a very low population but some of the most rugged terrain to be found in the British isles. Virtually everything from waste collection to schools costs more to do because you lose the economies of scale and need more resources to cover the same population.

Thus its entirely fair that when it comes to monies provided to Scotland or Wales by Westminster this should be reflected in what is paid out.

On the other hand things like hospital parking for visitors and staff should be free out of principle throughout the UK and it stinks that England is the only nation where this doesn't happen.
Those who live in Northumberland, Cumberland and on the Yorkshire Moors and Dales might raise an eyebrow at that. Alston , the highest market town in England is 20 miles from anywhere that has more than a local coop supermarket and at 1000 ft above sea level is a might chilly at this time of year.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.81246 ... authuser=0
You will always be able to cherry pick examples in England if you look hard enough - but the general principle still stands. It costs a lot more to provide the same set of statutory services in Wales or Scotland than it does in England.

If Northumberland finds that its costs are higher than say Hampshire due to the terrain, then the central Government grant from Westminster should reflect that - its not an argument to cut the funding to Scotland or Wales instead.
Scotland also has a higher percentage of its population living on islands than England does. Thanks to Anglesey, Wales has too, but like Portsea Island, where Portsmouth is, it is very well connected to the mainland.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by KeithW »

Phil wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:30 You will always be able to cherry pick examples in England if you look hard enough - but the general principle still stands. It costs a lot more to provide the same set of statutory services in Wales or Scotland than it does in England.

If Northumberland finds that its costs are higher than say Hampshire due to the terrain, then the central Government grant from Westminster should reflect that - its not an argument to cut the funding to Scotland or Wales instead.
Now where have I advocated cutting funding to either Scotland or Wales ?

The point was simple, there are parts of England, especially North of Leeds and West of Exeter which are pretty darned remote, not to mention a fair part of Lincolnshire and Norfolk. Hell even in Kent where I lived in Lydd during the 1980s the nearest supermarkets for a weekly shop were in Ashford and Folkestone

As for statutory services take a look at the area served by North Yorkshire County Council, lets take Ryedale District, it has an area of 582 sq mi and a population of 55,380, the big city is Malton , pop 13,000. The saving grace today is the big super market chains now deliver to most of North Yorkshire.

This is of course a metropolis compared with Kirkby Stephen which has a population of 1800 or so and is 30 miles or so from the nearest shopping centre.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by KeithW »

Phil wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 16:17
KeithW wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 09:25
I addressed this in my post and even gave references to the relevant acts of Parliament. Note that Estuarine crossings are typically treated differently to inland bridges and many are tolled.

See
Humber Bridge
Itchen Bridge
Mersey Tunnels
Tamar Bridge
Tyne Tunnel
Mersey Gateway

etc
IIRC the Humber bridge tolls, like those at Dartford are supposed to cease when the Bridge construction costs are paid off. Due to low traffic volumes this hasn't happened - indeed fresh legislation had to be put in place because the authorising acts actually put a time limit on how long tolls could be charged and had they ended when originally scheduled the local authorities who make up the Bridge owners would have been landed with massive bill to pay!

The Itchen Bridge, Mersey Tunnels, and Tyne tunnel are all within urban areas - in such places its recognised that traffic should be discouraged and tolling helps with this so could be considered in the same vein as the London Congestion charge. In the case of the Tyne Tunnel, long distance strategic traffic should be heading round the western by-pass, just as long distance traffic should use Dartford and not the Blackwall tunnel in London.

The Tamar Bridge tolls perform a similar function and discourage car commuting into the city from the west.

The Mersey Gateway Bridge tolls only exist because of the failure of Central Government to do its job! There has long been a need to provide relief to the Sliver Jubilee bridge at Runcorn but central government continually refused to provide funding. The local authorities therefore promoted a tolled crossing as a means of getting something done as there was no way they could afford to pay for it themselves. In any case its another crossing where the authorising acts only allow the toll to be charged until construction costs have been paid off.
My point was simply that the bridges over estuaries are typically treated differently from inland bridges.

The south portal to the Tyne Tunnel is in Jarrow but its a not a local bridge, its a strategic road that carries the A19 from Teesside and Sunderland to the A1 at Seaton Burn. In fact before the Western Bypass was built it was a for a while the A1. With an AADF of around 40k there is no way the Western Bypass could handle the extra traffic if it was not uses. There is also the the issue that from Teesside or Sunderland the Western Bypass is quite a detour.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Phil »

KeithW wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 21:33
My point was simply that the bridges over estuaries are typically treated differently from inland bridges.

The south portal to the Tyne Tunnel is in Jarrow but its a not a local bridge, its a strategic road that carries the A19 from Teesside and Sunderland to the A1 at Seaton Burn.
In truth its both.

Yes the A19 is a strategic road in the sense that it links Teeside to Tyneside / Sunderland and the south, but at the same time an awful lot of the traffic through it is doing short cross river hops across the Tyne.

Such 'short hop' traffic is recognised as being big cause of poor air quality in cities / urban areas - and although not perhaps as comprehensive as it could be, along the areas bordering the Tyne there is the metro, bus and cycle routes on either bank plus provision to walk / cycle under the river which can be used instead of the private car. Thus tolling the tunnel, although primarily to recoup construction costs, does have an element of a congestion charge about it.

In some ways it is perhaps similar in principle to the A38 across the Tamar - that is still an important regional route linking Plymouth to Bodmin and places west but the tolling regime also acts as a kind of congestion charge seeking to dissuade people from driving into Plymouth.

This compares with something like the Severn Bridge where there isn't really much 'local' cross river traffic being generated on each bank and the road can be said to be 100% strategic.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by KeithW »

Phil wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 00:33
KeithW wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 21:33
My point was simply that the bridges over estuaries are typically treated differently from inland bridges.

The south portal to the Tyne Tunnel is in Jarrow but its a not a local bridge, its a strategic road that carries the A19 from Teesside and Sunderland to the A1 at Seaton Burn.
In truth its both.

Yes the A19 is a strategic road in the sense that it links Teeside to Tyneside / Sunderland and the south, but at the same time an awful lot of the traffic through it is doing short cross river hops across the Tyne.

Such 'short hop' traffic is recognised as being big cause of poor air quality in cities / urban areas - and although not perhaps as comprehensive as it could be, along the areas bordering the Tyne there is the metro, bus and cycle routes on either bank plus provision to walk / cycle under the river which can be used instead of the private car. Thus tolling the tunnel, although primarily to recoup construction costs, does have an element of a congestion charge about it.

In some ways it is perhaps similar in principle to the A38 across the Tamar - that is still an important regional route linking Plymouth to Bodmin and places west but the tolling regime also acts as a kind of congestion charge seeking to dissuade people from driving into Plymouth.

This compares with something like the Severn Bridge where there isn't really much 'local' cross river traffic being generated on each bank and the road can be said to be 100% strategic.
The A19 rather critically links Teesside and eastern Tyneside to the north on up to Seaton Burn, Morpeth, Northumberland and Edinburgh it is one of the strategic roads managed by Highways Englands. Lets look at the A19 traffic numbers.

South of A184 60k
At tunnel southern portal 42k
North of tunnel 45k
At Seaton Burn 38k

Not much sign of local traffic across the Tyne there.

Now lets look at the A1 Western bypass
At Durham 65k
At Chester Le Street 100k
At Metro Centre 70k
At A694 south of Tyne 70k
At A69 north of Tyne 100k
South of A1056 80k
North of A1056 60k
At Seaton Burn 30k

This is as clear an indication of north south local traffic as you can get. The underlying A1 traffic is around 50k, the rest is locally generated by shoppers and commuters.

There is a point on the A19 where there is a lot of local traffic, that is the Tees Viaduct
A19 south of A174 - 40k
A19 at A66 junction - 100k
A19 at Portrack Lane - 100k
A19 south of A689 - 80k
A19 north of A689 - 50k.

To address this there are two improvements planned

1) Widen A19 to 3 Lanes from Norton to Wynard which is happening right now.
2) Widen the viaduct to 3 lanes and add a third Tees Crossing for local traffic, the final route has been selected by the Tees Valley Combined Authority and an application for funding under the Major Roads Scheme has been made. There is a good prospect that this will be approved once the Covid mess is out of the way.

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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Stevie D »

Phil wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 00:33Yes the A19 is a strategic road in the sense that it links Teeside to Tyneside / Sunderland and the south, but at the same time an awful lot of the traffic through it is doing short cross river hops across the Tyne.

Such 'short hop' traffic is recognised as being big cause of poor air quality in cities / urban areas - and although not perhaps as comprehensive as it could be, along the areas bordering the Tyne there is the metro, bus and cycle routes on either bank plus provision to walk / cycle under the river which can be used instead of the private car. Thus tolling the tunnel, although primarily to recoup construction costs, does have an element of a congestion charge about it.
The problem is that the areas on both sides of the Tyne are heavily built up (far more so than Saltash) but there is virtually no cross-river public transport. You've got the Shields Ferry, which doesn't connect very well with Metro or even buses on either side. The ferry only runs every 30 minutes and evenings services aren't great (worse at the moment because it's running a reduced timetable because of Covid, but even normally it packs up at 8pm on Monday to Wednesday and at 6pm on Sunday). There is one half-hourly bus service from Jarrow to North Shields but that is about all, and the Metro only crosses the river on the QEII bridge in the city centre. So public transport connections between North Tyneside and South Tyneside are woeful, and until they are significantly improved then it is inevitable that large numbers of people will have no practicable option apart from driving.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Just a question about charging.

I crossed this afternoon.

I had set up an account linked to my debit card with my car details already registered.

On logging into my account now it says
"

Crossing history

No recent crossing history, please try again.

"

What should I do? Anything?
WHBM
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by WHBM »

Mark Hewitt wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 18:32 Just a question about charging.

I crossed this afternoon.

I had set up an account linked to my debit card with my car details already registered.

On logging into my account now it says
"

Crossing history

No recent crossing history, please try again.

"

What should I do? Anything?
It normally takes at least a day, sometimes two, for journeys to turn up there. I think they process overnight. If your account details are showing on there, you are fine.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Berk »

The payment system for the Dartford Crossing has recently been changed. I chose to set up an account on the new service myself, but if you hadn’t, it would’ve been migrated across. Your old account would then be closed.

Also just read this notice online.
Dart Charge wrote:The Dartford Crossing charge (Dart Charge) payment deadline has been temporarily extended because of delays to the service.

If you used the crossing between 27 July and 14 August you have until either:

15 August to pay the charge if you do not have a Dart Charge account
31 August to update your card details if you already have a Dart Charge account

Usually, you need to pay the Dart Charge by midnight the day after you cross.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Berk wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 19:14 The payment system for the Dartford Crossing has recently been changed. I chose to set up an account on the new service myself, but if you hadn’t, it would’ve been migrated across. Your old account would then be closed.

Also just read this notice online.
Dart Charge wrote:The Dartford Crossing charge (Dart Charge) payment deadline has been temporarily extended because of delays to the service.

If you used the crossing between 27 July and 14 August you have until either:

15 August to pay the charge if you do not have a Dart Charge account
31 August to update your card details if you already have a Dart Charge account

Usually, you need to pay the Dart Charge by midnight the day after you cross.
Yeah I had to renter my card details a few days ago.
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by Peter Freeman »

KeithW wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 09:21
2) Widen the viaduct to 3 lanes and add a third Tees Crossing for local traffic, the final route has been selected by the Tees Valley Combined Authority and an application for funding under the Major Roads Scheme has been made. There is a good prospect that this will be approved once the Covid mess is out of the way.

That appears to be a very significant project in these constrained times. New topic?
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Re: Dartford Crossing - Free Flow Charging

Post by WHBM »

Berk wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 19:14 The payment system for the Dartford Crossing has recently been changed. I chose to set up an account on the new service myself, but if you hadn’t, it would’ve been migrated across. Your old account would then be closed.
The transition between Dartford Crossing payment contractors has been an absolute IT fiasco, and trying to pay online has stories of people being kept in an IT queue for hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-66370666

Despite the woolly words and, apparently, initial threats of fining large numbers of people quite unable to connect, it looks like a lot of tolls are going to have to be written off. One wonders what was wrong with the old system. New contractor likely came in a bit cheaper, all the saving now lost ?

Yet another National Highways cockup.
Dartford MP Gareth Johnson called the issue "bitterly disappointing".

"I met with National Highways a couple of weeks ago to go through their resilience for this change over period, and they gave me assurances that their IT systems could cope and clearly that's not the case," he said.

"This cannot go on. Bearing in mind National Highways had two years to prepare for this, it's really a poor show on behalf of them."
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