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RichardA35 wrote:As traffic noise became more of an issue whisper concrete was trialled on the A50 Hilton and A13 Wennington. This is a subset of CRCP which has high PSV aggregate in the concrete or upper layer depending on technique.
I'm sure we are all grateful to Richard for these detailed notes.
I came back along the A13 last night, in the dark, and of course was looking out for aural cues from the concrete section west of the M25 to Wennington. You really don't notice it as such, compared to the very poor M25 south-west section J8-J10. It has always, since it was completed (1999 ?) been an unobtrusive concrete section. The contractor (Balfour Beatty) could not use it west of Wennington where the A13 crosses the Rainham Marshes due to the likelihood of poor ground subsidence on this section, notwithstanding the extensive ground treatment performed (I believe that 7,700 piles had to be installed there, and Balfour's concrete pile manufacturing plant in Derbyshire was a significant part of them getting the job). These two adjacent sections thus give a good comparison, and you really do not notice any difference in noise when making the transition from concrete to blacktop. I did suspect it was the characteristics of the aggregate that made the difference.
Mettie wrote:The A47 between Wendling and Scarning in Norfolk is concrete, and IMO the end of the section can't come quick enough. It has had the cracks repaired so often that in parts it is like driving down the old railway line that the road replaced.....
Remember when the dual carriageway East Dereham bypass section east of that was also all concrete? It was built at the same time as the Wendling-Scarning section (mid-1970s) but had aged a lot worse, and was completely resurfaced in asphalt only a few years ago. I can remember the disconcerting "roaring/bumping" noise mix to this day.
PeterA5145 wrote:Concrete was used for a fair number of roads on housing and industrial estates in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Actually there are many from a while earlier. The one I linked to above was the approach road to the 1930s London Heston airfield, never touched since, like this one below here which I recall from younger days in Bristol (goodness, I was noticing road construction standards even then, we moved away when I was aged 9), and is still untouched and as-built, through classic late 1930s semis.
The roads I know of post war residential and industrial areas such as Cregagh / Ladas Drive in Belfast, estates such as Rathcoole/Rathfern in Newtownabbey and the nearby Shore Road between Whitehouse and Mill Road, and the entrance road to Musgrave Park Hospital used what look like big slabs of concrete.
By now patched up because of utilities, the patches are smaller looking slabs.
I live on a concrete street. The surface itself is 70 yeas old, and looks like it could last another 70. Last year they dug a trench through it to put in a replacement cable for street lighting. The reinstated concrete was not done right and cracked up and had to be replaced. The second reinstatement was 1cm lower than the surrounding surface, creating vibrations throughout all the nearby houses every time a large vehicle went over it, and had to be removed. The third reinstatement was in tarmac. I guess they got fed up with it!
A lot of answers relating to sections of relatively old concrete pavements that are slowly being subjected to a "make do and mend" solution of overlay or "surface dressing" within the constraints of the current Maintenance Area Contracts (MAC) system.
Technology and materials have moved on a lot since these roads were first built and the use of Exposed Aggregate Concrete Surface (EACS) designs now offers noise characteristics that are at least comparable to those of asphalt pavements but with considerably greater durability. A good example of this technology is the A449 Coldra to Usk rehabilitation scheme built way back in 1998/9 where testing has since demonstrated these properties. The age of this scheme also serves to demonstrate how difficult it is to change perceptions particularly in respect of government agencies and a construction industry which is reluctant to drive innovation until absolutely necessary.
By "absolutely necessary" I mean the point at which Highways England demands such often long overdue changes. Concrete's durability means a longer life with fewer repairs and by default less disruption to the normal daily operation of roads.
Old thread resuscitated. I see I was commenting here years ago.
Came along the SW side of the M25 last week, M23 to Heathrow the concrete really has deteriorated to an unacceptable standard, constant bang-bang-bang of going over the joints. When traffic slowed to a crawl, I noticed the material in the joints has disappeared in places, leaving about a 1 inch gap at each block joint. Surely that cannot be expected to last long term.
WHBM wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:56
Old thread resuscitated. I see I was commenting here years ago.
Came along the SW side of the M25 last week, M23 to Heathrow the concrete really has deteriorated to an unacceptable standard, constant bang-bang-bang of going over the joints. When traffic slowed to a crawl, I noticed the material in the joints has disappeared in places, leaving about a 1 inch gap at each block joint. Surely that cannot be expected to last long term.
I similarly came Reigate to Wisley recently and noticed that.
At slow speed I could see that what looks like "no joint" has actually been routed out and a wider joint sealant material inserted but is some way below the surface level.
With the DBFO arrangement I cannot see any major renewal of that section in the future, rather a maintenance of the status quo and a sweating of the asset...
Gareth Thomas wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:55
The M20 was concrete all the way from Junction 8 to Junction 13. Horrible to drive on, just that screeching noise (with a brief respite over each bridge!). Junctions 9-10 were the first section to be resurfaced, before the rest was several years ago. I remember thinking, "Thank God!".
Although, when using the M27/M271 stretches with concrete, it does bring back memories of "going home" (once we were on the concrete section past Maidstone, we knew there wasn't much longer to go!).
Was concrete ever used on single carriageway A/B roads? I can't think of any locally (East Kent) but perhaps elsewhere?
WHBM wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:56Came along the SW side of the M25 last week, M23 to Heathrow the concrete really has deteriorated to an unacceptable standard, constant bang-bang-bang of going over the joints. When traffic slowed to a crawl, I noticed the material in the joints has disappeared in places, leaving about a 1 inch gap at each block joint. Surely that cannot be expected to last long term.
I was on the north side of the M25 for the first time last week (A1 to M11) and it had one inch gaps running along the carriageway. Combined with being practically unable to see the lane dividers because of the sun it was a fun road on a motorcycle.
Going by Streetview, there is just no interest in filling the gaps in.
Gareth Thomas wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:55Was concrete ever used on single carriageway A/B roads? I can't think of any locally (East Kent) but perhaps elsewhere?
The SWTRA section of the A4232 Cardiff Link from the A48 to M4 J33 was built as concrete in the 1980s. The boundary of the Cardiff/SWTRA authority under the junction is where the concrete joins a traditional asphalt surface, and has become so badly damaged that the Agency has gone with a typically Welsh solution of 50mph limiting the road under the junction (only northbound, for whatever reason) and put down a pair of 'swervy car' signs, otherwise known as 'We give up, this road is shagged'. Between the weekly accidents or both-way blockages caused by heavy vehicle breakdowns, the 'Link Road' as it's known is starting to look like the next big capital project, especially if the J34 link road plan is successfully challenged again. Of course, that's assuming that the Welsh Government ever manages to pass a road building project again. I'm almost sure if the A4232 was in England it would be a full ring road and not three quarters, and it would have at least a soft shoulder.
The M180 Sandtoft to Trent was built using rigid construction but was subsequently rebuilt using blacktop,I believe it was built with concrete because of ground conditions.It was built as an experiment using continous reinforcement and laid using a slipform paver
Info from the Motorway Archive
"Continuously Reinforced Concrete Pavement had not been used on a major road contract in the United Kingdom, except for two short lengths on the M62, Balkholme to Caves contract previously described. Seven lengths were involved, each approximately 1.6km long and set in a new UK record for CRCP.
The principal to promote hairline cracking at frequent intervals of 1.5 to 2.0m with a relatively heavy longitudinal reinforcement (0.6% by area) restricting the cracks to a width which maintains aggregate interlock load transfer and not require sealing has been discussed. The resulting increased flexibility of the slab will cope with any settlement of sub-soil which may incur. The basic design was developed by the Transport and Road Research Laboratory and was refined by the West Yorkshire Sub-Unit at the design stage of the contract.
The overall carriageway construction depth is 460 mm, the CRCP being 210mm, 230mm and 250mm thick, the remainder made up in sub-base, for which the Contractor used the Cement Bound Granular alternative. There are two lengths of identical thickness, one containing the reinforcement at mid-depth and the other at 1/3 depth. There is an additional section containing fabric reinforcement 7.6km long. The unreinforced concrete hard shoulder was paved after the 11.2 metre wide slab by a mini-paver, which also constructed the trapezoidal drainage channel at the same time. Elsewhere, the overall rigid construction depth is still 460 mm, but is made up of 180 mm unreinforced or reinforced pavement and 180 mm unreinforced or reinforced pavement and 180 mm sub-base. A length of the unreinforced pavement has narrow, unsealed contraction joints 3 mm wide and no polythene underlay.
Two types of terminal treatment for the CRCP slabs formed part of the experiment, with terminal anchor blocks provided to restrain movement, and wide flanged beam joints to allow the slab to move freely.
Concrete mix designs for the pavement involve the supply of some 96,000 tonnes of course aggregate, 60,000 tonnes of fine aggregate and 25,000 tonnes of cement. Stockpiling of materials on site began in January, 1978 with paving commencing in April 1978.
Concrete mixed on site used a Rex automatic batching plant incorporating a 7.5 cu. m capacity tilting drum mixture. Mixed material was transported to the paver using purpose made four axle non-tipping ejector trucks with 7.5 cu. m capacity to match the batch size. The trucks fitted with hydraulic actuated sliding ejector bulkheads and tailgates enabled rapid but controlled discharge into the paver.
The principle element in the paving unit was a wire guided Gunter and Zimmerman slip form paver incorporating a 2 metre long conforming plate, capable of laying the 11.2 metre wide slab. The machine ran on a pair of crawler tracks and was adjusted for line and level by wires which were positioned outside the machine. The unit was also capable of forming the longitudinal joints. Other units used, as and when necessary, were a transverse joint finisher and a combined brush texturing and curing spray machine, all of which were carried on rubber tyres and were wire guided."
The A180 Barnetby Top to Grimsby was built with concrete in the early 80's and suffered problems with noise and joint problems ,a section of this road was overlaid with blacktop some years ago where it ran close to a residential area after multiple complaints of noise.
HE have announced it will resurface the remaining sections with asphalt over the next 3 years.The A180 was built with lateral grooves across it to aid rain runoff resulting in a great deal of noise when driving on it.
The M42, between junction 9 & 10 was original concrete - ridged to give good grip in wet or icy conditions but very noisy and increasingly low grip as the ridges polished with heavy use - replaced with tarmac at around 10 years old.
DB617 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 19:09I'm almost sure if the A4232 was in England it would be a full ring road and not three quarters, and it would have at least a soft shoulder.
I’m not so sure. The Cardiff metropolitan area has about half a million people, and I can think of several comparable cities in England that have nothing remotely like the A4232 - see Leeds, which has a ring road that’s a mix of suburban single and dual carriageway, and not a complete ring, and a population larger than Cardiff; or Sheffield or Bristol.
My perspective - as a child of Leeds who has always lived on the east side of the Welsh/English border - is that Cardiff probably benefits from being the biggest city in Wales (and the capital) and so gets a level of attention and investment that a similar city in England never would!
We don't mind old threads being resurrected if there is something new to say about it!
The A21 between Circular Road Newtownards and the dual carriageway towards Comber (ie the boundary of the pre-1973 urban Newtownards council) was S2 and built as concrete. It has long since been resurfaced in HRA. Resurfacing the D2 Sydenham Bypass with HRA where part of it was built as concrete could not entirely hide the joints underneath.
I suspect that a reason is that once asphalt has been rolled out satisfactorily, the road is ready for use by motor vehicles almost immediately with no requirement to wait x hours for poured concrete to set.
DB617 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 19:09I'm almost sure if the A4232 was in England it would be a full ring road and not three quarters, and it would have at least a soft shoulder.
I’m not so sure. The Cardiff metropolitan area has about half a million people, and I can think of several comparable cities in England that have nothing remotely like the A4232 - see Leeds, which has a ring road that’s a mix of suburban single and dual carriageway, and not a complete ring, and a population larger than Cardiff; or Sheffield or Bristol.
My perspective - as a child of Leeds who has always lived on the east side of the Welsh/English border - is that Cardiff probably benefits from being the biggest city in Wales (and the capital) and so gets a level of attention and investment that a similar city in England never would!
Don't forget that the general South Wales area has had dozens of local road projects in the last 25 years. Some areas are unrecognisable; unthinkable in England.
Even little villages like Aberfan have had new relief roads built to improve the former torturous valley road accesses. Yes, that's the same Aberfan bypassed by the A470, built across the top of the former slag heaps after the tragedy there...
Bryn Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already. She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Mattemotorway wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 13:57
Didn't most of the M18 between Junctions 6 and 7 have a concrete surface originally? And a short section between J5 and J6 too?
I visited the M18 construction site J6-7 whilst it was being built and I do not recall any of it being built with rigid construction,although it was still at earthworks stage during my visit.
I do recall much of this section having to undergo large scale reconstruction in later years because,as someone told me,insufficient depth of roadbase.The ground around this stretch is very boggy and peaty.It is the area where much peat is or has been extracted for garden use.
I have consulted the Motorway Archive and can find no reference for pavement construction on this section so you could be correct about it having rigid construction
Chris5156 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:17
I’m not so sure. The Cardiff metropolitan area has about half a million people, and I can think of several comparable cities in England that have nothing remotely like the A4232 - see Leeds, which has a ring road that’s a mix of suburban single and dual carriageway, and not a complete ring, and a population larger than Cardiff; or Sheffield or Bristol.
My perspective - as a child of Leeds who has always lived on the east side of the Welsh/English border - is that Cardiff probably benefits from being the biggest city in Wales (and the capital) and so gets a level of attention and investment that a similar city in England never would!
I take that point - perhaps the grass seems greener on the other side, because Bristol has recieved a similar treatment with the A4174/A4 and Birmingham famously has a motorway running straight through the conurbation instead of a western ring.
However I think Cardiff's case, common to coastal cities, is different to an inland city because its 'centre' where most people gravitate to (the City on weekdays and the Bay and City on weekends) are actually on the south-central side of the urban area. Given a large proportion of the daily visitors live in Newport, the Vale of Glamorgan or the Valleys, a complete bypass of the messy roads in the old town and northern suburbs - the A48 is a gruesome set of crossroads that cause a massive stick-up twice daily - is needed desperately for south-north movements. I'm sure there are other places in Britain that also suffer from their lack of surrounding land to build more distributor roads on. I'm coastal born and bred and working and living just off the M25 was quite a different experience - you can find a major road going in every direction, not just drive ten miles north to find the east-west roads (A48+M4)!
Reading up on the A4232 was quite interesting, though. Built piecemeal, it's now an essential distributor road where previously the industrial estates and residential areas, giving way to country lanes to the nearby towns, actually formed the entire road network. I was born far too late to suffer that hell.
