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Altnabreac wrote:However the prime reason the A1 isn't complete in this way is because the vast majority of Edinburgh - England traffic does not use the A1. If it all used the A1 the AADTs would justify dualling straight away.
Would that be because the A1 route between England and Scotland is so poor and the alternative at Gretna is so good?
If the A1(M) went to Edinburgh then we would see half the traffic switch to using that route over the M6/A74(M)/M74 route as getting to Edinburgh from the east of England and the other way would be much quicker.
I think that this is a situation where the numbers using the road is a deception. It would also get a few more people doing the cross border trip too I would imagine.
Altnabreac wrote:However the prime reason the A1 isn't complete in this way is because the vast majority of Edinburgh - England traffic does not use the A1. If it all used the A1 the AADTs would justify dualling straight away.
Would that be because the A1 route between England and Scotland is so poor and the alternative at Gretna is so good?
If the A1(M) went to Edinburgh then we would see half the traffic switch to using that route over the M6/A74(M)/M74 route as getting to Edinburgh from the east of England and the other way would be much quicker.
I think that this is a situation where the numbers using the road is a deception. It would also get a few more people doing the cross border trip too I would imagine.
That's part of it but not all of it. The A1(M) in Yorkshire, the A1 in Bedfordshire etc are part of the equation too. I think the completion of Leeming - Barton will make a difference to A1 Northumberland traffic but equally if improvements were made to the A66 or a new M74-M8 link were built they could take traffic away from the A1 in Northumberland.
Edinburgh is quite a long way to the west of most of England so there will always be a choice of going south to Gretna and then east to England or east to Berwick and south to England.
Scotch Corner to the Queensferry Crossing is 176 miles via the A1 /A720 or 175 miles via A66 / A702 / A720. So going via the west coast is actually shorter for pretty much any traffic from north or west of Edinburgh to south of Scotch Corner.
Unless there was a huge quality advantage on the A1 the main users of the A1 in Northumberland will be Tyneside - Edinburgh traffic. And I'd argue that M7 Douglas to Whitburn would be an intervention that benefitted more people for less money than a full upgrade of the A1 from Skateraw to Ellingham.
I'd obviously like to see both happen, but if I were working for Transport Scotland, Douglas - Whitburn would be the one getting my investment case.
Edinburgh is quite a long way to the west of most of England so there will always be a choice of going south to Gretna and then east to England or east to Berwick and south to England.
Scotch Corner to the Queensferry Crossing is 176 miles via the A1 /A720 or 175 miles via A66 / A702 / A720. So going via the west coast is actually shorter for pretty much any traffic from north or west of Edinburgh to south of Scotch Corner.
Unless there was a huge quality advantage on the A1 the main users of the A1 in Northumberland will be Tyneside - Edinburgh traffic. And I'd argue that M7 Douglas to Whitburn would be an intervention that benefitted more people for less money than a full upgrade of the A1 from Skateraw to Ellingham.
I'd obviously like to see both happen, but if I were working for Transport Scotland, Douglas - Whitburn would be the one getting my investment case.
Edinburgh is actually further west than Carlisle, and even Liverpool. Even though the A1 is generally perceived as a north/south route, after Berwick its route becomes north west, west, and even west south west on the run in to Edinburgh. Hence the A696 / A68 or A1 / A697 / A68 routes are more direct routes from Newcastle to Edinburgh in terms of mileage. While the A1 west of Skateraw is clearly superior in quality to the other roads, there is over 60 miles of A1 between Morpeth and Skateraw where there is only intermittent dual carriageway, principally near Alnwick, and for three miles up to the Scottish border.
Building a Douglas - Whitburn motorway would clearly be beneficial as a means of improving access to Edinburgh from the south, but it could put even more pressure on the Queensferry Crossing and the motorways approaching it as drivers would then see the M7 / M8 / M9 / M90 route as a shorter route from England to Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness than the M73 / M80 / M9 / A9.
Robert Kilcoyne wrote:Edinburgh is actually further west than Carlisle, and even Liverpool. Even though the A1 is generally perceived as a north/south route, after Berwick its route becomes north west, west, and even west south west on the run in to Edinburgh. Hence the A696 / A68 or A1 / A697 / A68 routes are more direct routes from Newcastle to Edinburgh in terms of mileage. While the A1 west of Skateraw is clearly superior in quality to the other roads, there is over 60 miles of A1 between Morpeth and Skateraw where there is only intermittent dual carriageway, principally near Alnwick, and for three miles up to the Scottish border.
Building a Douglas - Whitburn motorway would clearly be beneficial as a means of improving access to Edinburgh from the south, but it could put even more pressure on the Queensferry Crossing and the motorways approaching it as drivers would then see the M7 / M8 / M9 / M90 route as a shorter route from England to Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness than the M73 / M80 / M9 / A9.
Thats not a totally bad thing, it would just show up the fact that 2 lane motorways are a bad design in long distance routes, they should be D3M at least, if not D4M where very busy.
Altnabreac wrote:
Unless there was a huge quality advantage on the A1 the main users of the A1 in Northumberland will be Tyneside - Edinburgh traffic. And I'd argue that M7 Douglas to Whitburn would be an intervention that benefitted more people for less money than a full upgrade of the A1 from Skateraw to Ellingham.
I'd obviously like to see both happen, but if I were working for Transport Scotland, Douglas - Whitburn would be the one getting my investment case.
I agree with this. It would make a lot of sense to build a Douglas to Whitburn, or maybe Abington to Livingston, motorway, as well as upgrade the A66 to a motorway between Scotch Corner and Penrith.
It would probably be cheaper than upgrading the A1 to motorway along the east coast (as it doesn't go through as many popuated areas), and remove a lot of traffic from the Teesside/Tyneside area.
I would have the M7 starting at J2 of the M8, proceeding on a newly-built route (roughly alongside the existing A70) to Abington, along the renumbered existing A74(M) and M6 to Penrith, along an upgraded A66 to Scotch Corner, and along the renumbered existing A1(M) to terminate in Blyth.
Altnabreac wrote:
Unless there was a huge quality advantage on the A1 the main users of the A1 in Northumberland will be Tyneside - Edinburgh traffic. And I'd argue that M7 Douglas to Whitburn would be an intervention that benefitted more people for less money than a full upgrade of the A1 from Skateraw to Ellingham.
I'd obviously like to see both happen, but if I were working for Transport Scotland, Douglas - Whitburn would be the one getting my investment case.
I agree with this. It would make a lot of sense to build a Douglas to Whitburn, or maybe Abington to Livingston, motorway, as well as upgrade the A66 to a motorway between Scotch Corner and Penrith.
It would probably be cheaper than upgrading the A1 to motorway along the east coast (as it doesn't go through as many popuated areas), and remove a lot of traffic from the Teesside/Tyneside area.
I would have the M7 starting at J2 of the M8, proceeding on a newly-built route (roughly alongside the existing A70) to Abington, along the renumbered existing A74(M) and M6 to Penrith, along an upgraded A66 to Scotch Corner, and along the renumbered existing A1(M) to terminate in Blyth.
That actually makes better sense than the old A702 proposals...
Getting back to the subject, and picking up from my previous posting...
Someone has made a real dog's breakfast of the mileage signs on the southbound A1 (M) from Scotch Corner to Leeming Bar. Why are these distances not accurately checked before expensive signs are manufactured and erected ? There is still no sign to the south of J53 Scotch corner, ( Wetherby 39, Leeds 55 ? ). South of J52 however the new sign has been installed but is WRONG. The mileage to Leeds is flagged as 47 ( should say 50 ), yet five miles further south after J51 at Leeming Bar , Leeds is correct at 45. About a mile south of J50, Leeds is 34 (correct) yet just two miles further south after the A168 converge at J49 Leeds has somehow dropped to 26. I appreciate that this latter sign dates from 1995 when this section of A1(M) was opened and it was understood that Leeds traffic used the A58 from Wetherby. It should however have long since been corrected, and these new signs need replacing. The Contractors should absorb the costs of replacement signs because THEY made the mistakes. Who signs off these jobs ? Do they not check ? I use this route on a regular basis and find this kind of sloppiness infuriating. ROADMEISTER 17.
Robert Kilcoyne wrote:Edinburgh is actually further west than Carlisle, and even Liverpool.
I thought this was a tall tale at first... but it’s perfectly true.
Funnily enough that's exactly the point I made on the last page of the thread:
Altnabreac wrote:If you were to walk due south from Princes Street you'd get your first taste of salty water when you hit the Solway Firth four miles west of Gretna, you then enter the sea again near Barrow and don't make landfall until the Wirral.
Edinburgh is further west than Bridgwater, Newport, Shrewsbury and Wrexham. Fundamentally it's on the western side of the UK, even though it's on the eastern side of Scotland so for a large part of Edinburgh - England cross border journeys travelling via the west coast will be quicker.
As far as I'm aware the mileage signs for Leeds these days all give the distance using the A64 from J44 into Leeds, as mentioned south of J49 the sign is now wrong, I know heading south at J45 it states Leeds 13 then 3 miles later when you leave onto the A64 you have Leeds 10 but if you remain on the A1(M) just south of J44 Leeds goes back up to 13 which to me clearly shows all signs north of J44 are based on the A64 route into Leeds, just a shame they have cocked the new ones up.
Altnabreac wrote:
Scotch Corner to the Queensferry Crossing is 176 miles via the A1 /A720 or 175 miles via A66 / A702 / A720. So going via the west coast is actually shorter for pretty much any traffic from north or west of Edinburgh to south of Scotch Corner.
For starters, the distance of a mile between your two routes wouldn't count for much as far as long-distance inter-urban routes are concerned.
The A66/M6/A74(M)/A702 isn't the shortest route from Scotch Corner to Queensferry (we're talking distance here, not time)
Going via the A1/A696/A68, the distance from Scotch Corner to Queensferry is only 158 miles.
Although other countries have managed to build motorways across similar terrain, I really can't see any of our governments agreeing to build a motorway across the Cheviot Hills.
Though I'd prefer a motorway, the very most that you're likely to get in Britain is an upgrade of this route to D2 between Ponteland & Dalkeith.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
There’s many problems with the West Coast route if you’re starting North of Scotch Corner. The A69 isn’t brilliant for starters. Then you get to the A74(M) which is good but it doesn’t head due North to Edinburgh it heads North-West which can only be corrected when you get to the A702 which is a poor quality road too.
All in all you’re better off sticking to the A1. It’s not likely to require motorway any time soon but plugging the gaps in the S2 would go a long way not just for journeys to Edinburgh but the whole of Northumberland and up to Berwick.
