A1(M) Leeming - Barton

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djw1981
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by djw1981 »

Burns wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 19:21
djw1981 wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 18:57 I've been doing Central belt to North Tyneside for at least a decade now and have tended to take the A68/A697/A1/A19 option from the Edinburgh bypass - less lorries, less cameras, more overtaking opportunities as I know the road better.
I've never heard less cameras used to describe the A68/A697 before. :wink:
Ok....I know where the cameras are and there are rarely any vans out at 5am.... so less 'surprise' cameras.
NICK 647063
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by NICK 647063 »

Re the services, yes I noticed the consultation. I get the feeling that Moto are not spending anything on Leeming Bar Services/Rest Area as they view it as a non-starter (despite them purchasing it a few years ago). They seem to want a new more 'on-line' or 'just off-line' build that doesn't involve a trip down the LAR.
I feel the same about Leeming Bar I suspect Moto bought it to keep away competition with the ultimate plan of building somewhere nearby, they have never invested in a Leeming Bar from day one, the only part of the services that is ever busy is Mac Donald’s, I hope baldersby gate gets built as the plans look good.
SteveA30
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by SteveA30 »

Something else is certainly needed. My only attempt at Wetherby had to be abandoned, as there was q queue for parking and, a queue to get out. Replacing multiple choices from Bramham to Scotch Corner with just 2 and a half MSA's (Leeming is the half) was never going to work. Looks like Londonderry Exelby is the place to go now. Not sure if it is signed as a general services or a truckstop.

This is where the A1 always beats the A1(M). Further south, there is everything from SA's like Gonerby and Blyth to motorist cafes like OK, fast food joints, transport cafes like Colsterworth or Markham Moor or just snack vans/caravans/coaches, if that is what you want, plus filling stations with food and drink. Choice and plenty of it at regular intervals.
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Repmobile
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by Repmobile »

SteveA30 wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 06:43 Something else is certainly needed. My only attempt at Wetherby had to be abandoned, as there was q queue for parking and, a queue to get out. Replacing multiple choices from Bramham to Scotch Corner with just 2 and a half MSA's (Leeming is the half) was never going to work. Looks like Londonderry Exelby is the place to go now. Not sure if it is signed as a general services or a truckstop.
Exelby's at Coneygarth (J51) is signposted as a truckstop, Moto is signposted as Leeming Bar Rest Area.

However, with it being located closer to J51 than Moto's Leeming Bar Services, Exelby's does seem to attract a lot of cars. I usually have to queue to refuel there during the day. Plus it is a lot newer, looks far cleaner and is better laid out than the Moto Services. As Nick647063 said above, Moto have not invested in Leeming Bar at all (in fact they closed the shop and opened a much smaller one in the main building etc, leaving the empty shop and even the motel looking very run down nowadays). If it wasn't for the McDonalds I think Moto would have closed it by now. It seems, as Nick647063 rightly says, that they bought it to stop any competition taking it over.

However, I agree that something else is needed between Wetherby and Scotch Corner (incidentally have you seen the price of the fuel at Scotch Corner? - it is eyewatering!). Baldersby Gate is ideal for an 'infill' service area, but I understand the local councillors are not happy about it, similar to when there was a plan to build a new service area at Kirby Hills:

https://bit.ly/2sqP8iQ

Although the upgrade to motorway between Dishforth and Barton is great, it has highlighted that the former online A1 services at such as Rainton, Sinderby, High Brough Moor etc, did provide a useful place to stop/refuel/eat etc and some sort of online replacement is needed asap.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by Andy J »

Going northbound Scotch Corner takes as long to get to and from as Leeming Bar, and is little better. I think it is sensibly signed as a rest area rather than a service area off the new A1(M).
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by NICK 647063 »

However, I agree that something else is needed between Wetherby and Scotch Corner (incidentally have you seen the price of the fuel at Scotch Corner? - it is eyewatering!). Baldersby Gate is ideal for an 'infill' service area, but I understand the local councillors are not happy about it, similar to when there was a plan to build a new service area at Kirby Hills:
The price of fuel at services is outrageous and something should be done to bring it more inline with the average price.

I did hear the local councillors on the news moaning about how a new services would drag trade away from Ripon as people would go there to shop!! I had to laugh clearly this shows how out of touch these people are, clearly they are not aware how expensive these places can be, also they were moaning about how litter would be a problem well surely it would be no different to when Rainton and the other were on the go.

I do think from a safety point a new service area is needed certainly there is demand, Wetherby is always packed of course Leeds Skelton Lake opens next year so will hopefully take a little pressure off Wetherby but another option North is needed.

The A64 is also going through a similar issue Highways England are wanting extra services built as Bilbrough top is the only main service area but like yesterday I could not get parked it was packed, they have tried at The a Hopgrove but it’s always rejected due to the locals and congestion in that area, definitely room for more services in the Yorkshire area.
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KeithW
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by KeithW »

NICK 647063 wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 16:32 The price of fuel at services is outrageous and something should be done to bring it more inline with the average price.
To play Devils Advocate here the fact Motorway Services are required to provide free short-term parking (2 hours), free 24-hour toilet facilities, and adequate provision for the sale of food and fuel 24 hours a day. This does have some degree of cost associated and the only people who can pay that are the people who buy that food and fuel. In fact the only times I have bought fuel at a motorway services were outside normal opening hours, usually I fill up before I set out.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

NICK 647063 wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 16:32
However, I agree that something else is needed between Wetherby and Scotch Corner (incidentally have you seen the price of the fuel at Scotch Corner? - it is eyewatering!). Baldersby Gate is ideal for an 'infill' service area, but I understand the local councillors are not happy about it, similar to when there was a plan to build a new service area at Kirby Hills:
The price of fuel at services is outrageous and something should be done to bring it more inline with the average price.

I did hear the local councillors on the news moaning about how a new services would drag trade away from Ripon as people would go there to shop!! I had to laugh clearly this shows how out of touch these people are, clearly they are not aware how expensive these places can be, also they were moaning about how litter would be a problem well surely it would be no different to when Rainton and the other were on the go.

I do think from a safety point a new service area is needed certainly there is demand, Wetherby is always packed of course Leeds Skelton Lake opens next year so will hopefully take a little pressure off Wetherby but another option North is needed.

The A64 is also going through a similar issue Highways England are wanting extra services built as Bilbrough top is the only main service area but like yesterday I could not get parked it was packed, they have tried at The a Hopgrove but it’s always rejected due to the locals and congestion in that area, definitely room for more services in the Yorkshire area.
The price of the fuel at Scotch Corner is probably influenced by the lack of competition nearby. The old Shell station at High Brough Moor has obviously closed; the nearest town, Richmond, is five miles away, and the A6108 is not the best access road. I don't remember seeing many petrol stations on the A66 between Scotch Corner and Brough.

Ripon is not exactly adjacent to the A1(M) and its access from the A1(M) is two far from brilliant S2's. A new motorway service area on the A1(M) would not pose much of a threat to Ripon's traders, particularly if the only eating places were a McDonald's/KFC/Burger King.

While Leeds Skelton Lake will be useful for drivers on the M1 and for those joining the M1 from the M62, it will be of no use to those drivers using the A1(M). Ultimately, a new service area needs to be built on the A1(M), ideally south of Junction 49, so that traffic for the A168 / A19 could also use it. Otherwise I would build a new service area at the former Rainton site.

The idea of a service area at Hopgrove was surely a non-starter; Hopgrove is horrendous enough as it is without introducing another traffic flow to an already notoriously congested roundabout. If HE wants to build a service area near York, maybe the A166 / A1079 exit may be a better option.
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Stevie D
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by Stevie D »

Robert Kilcoyne wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 19:55While Leeds Skelton Lake will be useful for drivers on the M1 and for those joining the M1 from the M62, it will be of no use to those drivers using the A1(M). Ultimately, a new service area needs to be built on the A1(M), ideally south of Junction 49, so that traffic for the A168 / A19 could also use it. Otherwise I would build a new service area at the former Rainton site.

The idea of a service area at Hopgrove was surely a non-starter; Hopgrove is horrendous enough as it is without introducing another traffic flow to an already notoriously congested roundabout. If HE wants to build a service area near York, maybe the A166 / A1079 exit may be a better option.
I think the best bet for the A1(M) would be at J49 (NE-quadrant), with new sliproads between A1(M)(S) and the local road network. The key point here is that it would serve both A1(M) and the A168/A19 route to Teesside, so while it is only 15 miles from Wetherby, having it any further north would leave the Teesside route without any proper services beyond Wetherby.

I don't see any need for services that close to York. All the junctions on the A64 are busy, and the A166/A1079 junction really could not cope with the additional traffic that a service station would bring. There is scope to improve the situation at Bilbrough Top by upgrading the existing petrol station on the eastbound carriageway so that you don't have so much eastbound traffic crossing over to the bigger site on the westbound side. You could then have a proper purpose-built service station further out, probably somewhere like Harton where there are existing facilities that could be enlarged and incorporated into a bigger site with improved access, as part of the upgrade to HQDC.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by brombeer »

I'm not really familiar in the area, but the intervals between the services in the region appear reasonable. This includes the (much smaller) services that you'll find on the A168/A19 between the A1(M) and Teeside. Capacity of the service stations, and maybe above all queues to reach them and go back onto the motorway again, thus seem the bigger problem? Arguably this part of the A1(M) has outgrown an approach where it is useful to have services on an exit that you'd have to reach via the same slip roads and roundabout as exiting traffic (and where locals / motorists on the road crossing the motorway can also use the services).

So maybe the better solution would be to see whether direct slip roads into the Leeming and Wetherby services would be achievable? And if not, I'd rather completely close these and rebuild them just up or down the road at a larger scale, as service areas only accessible from the A1(M). I suspect that interposing an MSA on one of the junctions would only create more of the same queues, while using the historic Rainton site would reduce the queues at Wetherby but not structurally solve the problem.

Just my two pennies.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by KeithW »

brombeer wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 13:34 I'm not really familiar in the area, but the intervals between the services in the region appear reasonable. This includes the (much smaller) services that you'll find on the A168/A19 between the A1(M) and Teeside. Capacity of the service stations, and maybe above all queues to reach them and go back onto the motorway again, thus seem the bigger problem? Arguably this part of the A1(M) has outgrown an approach where it is useful to have services on an exit that you'd have to reach via the same slip roads and roundabout as exiting traffic (and where locals / motorists on the road crossing the motorway can also use the services).

So maybe the better solution would be to see whether direct slip roads into the Leeming and Wetherby services would be achievable? And if not, I'd rather completely close these and rebuild them just up or down the road at a larger scale, as service areas only accessible from the A1(M). I suspect that interposing an MSA on one of the junctions would only create more of the same queues, while using the historic Rainton site would reduce the queues at Wetherby but not structurally solve the problem.

Just my two pennies.
The problem here is that the services between Wetherby and Newcastle are inadequate.

Wetherby is fine and moderb but is ALWAYS very busy and in the daytime in summer it can not only be impossible to find anywhere to park but getting out again can take 10 minutes.

Leeming Bar is cramped, neglected and old. Nothing has been done there since the upgrade was first discussed in 1993. It is little more than a a small shop (they closed the big one) snack bar and filling station.

Scotch Corner is also cramped and a pain to get in and out of. To get more outlets in the parking for cars with trailers was removed but nothing tells you this from the road.

Barton Park is signed as Truckstop but last time I was there it did does have spaces for cars and caravans and was in my humble opinion the best of the bunch. Trouble is it is also now owned by Moto which gives them an effective monopoly between Blyth and Durham - not good for customers at all.

Durham is another small single site that requires that you leave the motorway and access it from the A688, getting back on the motorway requires you make a right turn at a flat tee junction across the A688. Parking especially for HGV's , trailers and caravans is very limited.

Washington Services is appalling. Its old neglected and shabby squeezed in between the motorway and a housing estate its completely unfit for purpose. Its another no go area for cars towing caravans. As for truckers consider this review
Number 1 in the top 3 of the worst places I've stayed , the place looks like it's falling to bits and would probably be the best thing for it . Very noisy on the hgv parking area with breakdown trucks thinking it's normal to wake everybody up at all hours of the night dropping broken down cars in the dedicated hgv lanes .I would only stop here if I run out of my hours and would 1000000% not recommend it anybody !!
To make matters worse all the old service stations which were just off the A1 before improvement have gone along with the signs to local services such as the Morrisons at Boroughbridge and filling stations in Catterick

As others have said what is needed is a modern large services at somewhere like Excelby where you dont have to negotiate busy local roads to get in and out and close the dated dump that is Leeming Bar. When you drive up to the filling station the paint peeling of the canopy lets you know what you can expect.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by Paul7755 »

The whole concept of single service areas serving all traffic directions off a busy junction should be reviewed.

I used to like Wetherby for the first few years but it now seems to be overwhelmed for a lot of the normal day. My vote would be for separate areas either side of the road with fully free flow slips.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

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Paul7755 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 19:28 The whole concept of single service areas serving all traffic directions off a busy junction should be reviewed.
It was reviewed: the Highways Agency said such layouts were terrible for road safety and traffic flow and should effectively be outlawed, and then they were told that this conflicts with their duty to facilitate local economic growth and they must approve all reasonable requests.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by SteveA30 »

The HE should reject them as unreasonable requests.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

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SteveA30 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 19:47 The HE should reject them as unreasonable requests.
That's fantasy thinking. The rules that Highways England have to follow are that if it meets all highway design standards (as in they're not trying to put a crossroads in the middle of a motorway), it gets their approval. Whether or not it qualifies for MSA status depends on if the facilities tick the right boxes, which is easy. All other matters are for the local planning department, which is mostly about managing NIMBYs.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by brombeer »

KeithW wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 17:19 The problem here is that the services between Wetherby and Newcastle are inadequate.[...]
Presume that this pushes me into my option "I'd rather completely close the existing services and rebuild them just up or down the road at a larger scale, as service areas only accessible from the A1(M)."

In other words, build new and large areas (both in terms of parking space and access and size of service), at roughly the intervals between the current MSAs near junctions. Though I appreciate that this will be ambitious in terms of zoning, NIMBYs, funding etc. Just one new MSA can be realised quicker, even though that also means maintaining a situation that is unsustainable, also with one additional service area.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by wrinkly »

The signs for the Catterick Central exit on the northbound carriageway have a covered-up second destination line. The first line is Catterick; I suppose the covered-up line could be Richmond, or Brompton [-on-Swale], or "& Garrison" or "& Racecourse".

Still lots of cones and 30mph on some of the side roads, mostly for no obvious reason. Two lanes open on most of Scotch Corner roundbout but still some cones there.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

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NICK 647063 wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 20:54I was meaning to post I noticed these roadwork signs on a trip to Newcastle over the weekend, I’m going to email Highways England about this and see if they have any answers as to why a new road which is now 5 years old is needing full reconstruction which will be the same as was done from J49 to J50, I shall also be asking how much this whole fiasco is costing especially given they could not afford to alter the layout at J51.
Where is it said that the motorway is undergoing full reconstruction? The works are for 26 weeks, that would be an astonishingly quick programme of full reconstruction.

Resurfacing, maybe, due to some fault. But not full reconstruction, which would involve stripping out the carriageways right down to the base level and rebuilding. That's the sort of job that's been done on roads built 50 years ago and it takes months and months.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

Post by Bryn666 »

Johnathan404 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 19:37
Paul7755 wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 19:28 The whole concept of single service areas serving all traffic directions off a busy junction should be reviewed.
It was reviewed: the Highways Agency said such layouts were terrible for road safety and traffic flow and should effectively be outlawed, and then they were told that this conflicts with their duty to facilitate local economic growth and they must approve all reasonable requests.
"Economic growth" soon stagnates when the surrounding infrastructure is overwhelmed and people vote with their feet because of congestion. This, however, seems beyond the grasp of the average planning committee who just see £££ signs based off flawed developer led traffic assessments and don't give a damn about the actual consequences of what they're signing off.
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Re: A1(M) Leeming - Barton

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Chris5156 wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:04
NICK 647063 wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 20:54I was meaning to post I noticed these roadwork signs on a trip to Newcastle over the weekend, I’m going to email Highways England about this and see if they have any answers as to why a new road which is now 5 years old is needing full reconstruction which will be the same as was done from J49 to J50, I shall also be asking how much this whole fiasco is costing especially given they could not afford to alter the layout at J51.
Where is it said that the motorway is undergoing full reconstruction? The works are for 26 weeks, that would be an astonishingly quick programme of full reconstruction.

Resurfacing, maybe, due to some fault. But not full reconstruction, which would involve stripping out the carriageways right down to the base level and rebuilding. That's the sort of job that's been done on roads built 50 years ago and it takes months and months.
The HE website says
We've identified a 16km stretch of the A1(M) northbound carriageway between Ripon and Leeming Bar that is reaching the end of its serviceable life and is in need of resurfacing.
Possibly this is the same problem that led to both carriageways being done between Dishforth (J49) and Baldersby (J50) last autumn.
Measuring 16km north from Baldersby makes me wonder if it might just include the inside of Leeming Bar junction, and so address a frequent complaint on here!!

Resurfacing after 5 years is nothing compared with what happened around 2004 when two new sections of A1(M) had to have their upper layers removed and relaid before opening!

I get the impression that cariageway materials is a subject still at a primitive stage of understanding.
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