'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

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Mark Hewitt
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Mark Hewitt »

samxool wrote: i can't see that being obeyed.
Cyclists don't seem to have enough brain cells to work out the meanings of a red traffic light, a sign saying "cyclists give priority to pedestrians" or why they shouldn't undertake a truck turning left!
If all you have is insults perhaps shutting up would be better.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by michael769 »

Calm down folks!

If you want to express your views on other road users can I suggest the "numptie overload" thread, so that those of interested in discussing a new road junction don't have to wade thought screeds the usual bikes vs cars stuff.

Thank you for your consideration!
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by MJN »

Debaser wrote:But are we yet again a day late and a dollar short?

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... t-you.html
The turbo roundabouts are a different beast altogether from the ones which have been shown in this thread, you wouldn't want cyclists crossing them at grade in urban areas/at very busy junctions no.
koppie wrote: [*]The priority for cyclist on roundabout is a hot topic in the Netherlands. Statistics showed very high accident-rate on this kind of roundabout, 60 to 70 percent higher than on roundabouts with the same layout but without the priority for the cyclers. This is because of the double action of drivers, they have to(in extreme cases) give priority three times. And there can bea cyclist from both ways. Drivers will sometimes miss a cyclist and hit them. I've seen it happen in more than one occasion.
Interesting, I've never seen any suggestion of a high accident rate for them before. Do you have a source?
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Fenlander »

MJN wrote:
koppie wrote: [*]The priority for cyclist on roundabout is a hot topic in the Netherlands. Statistics showed very high accident-rate on this kind of roundabout, 60 to 70 percent higher than on roundabouts with the same layout but without the priority for the cyclers. This is because of the double action of drivers, they have to(in extreme cases) give priority three times. And there can bea cyclist from both ways. Drivers will sometimes miss a cyclist and hit them. I've seen it happen in more than one occasion.
Interesting, I've never seen any suggestion of a high accident rate for them before. Do you have a source?
Maybe the driver who hits a cyclist on the new type would also have hit a cyclist on the old one so overall no variance in the rate?
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by koppie »

MJN wrote:
Debaser wrote:But are we yet again a day late and a dollar short?

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... t-you.html
The turbo roundabouts are a different beast altogether from the ones which have been shown in this thread, you wouldn't want cyclists crossing them at grade in urban areas/at very busy junctions no.
koppie wrote: [*]The priority for cyclist on roundabout is a hot topic in the Netherlands. Statistics showed very high accident-rate on this kind of roundabout, 60 to 70 percent higher than on roundabouts with the same layout but without the priority for the cyclers. This is because of the double action of drivers, they have to(in extreme cases) give priority three times. And there can bea cyclist from both ways. Drivers will sometimes miss a cyclist and hit them. I've seen it happen in more than one occasion.
Interesting, I've never seen any suggestion of a high accident rate for them before. Do you have a source?
Yes, and a google search let me find it quite fast: SWOV factsheet rotondes on page 4.
It says (trying to translate): 'According to Fortuyn2005B (another report, which isn't publicly available) the number of casualties, with people hurt, is more than twice as high as on roundabouts without cyclist having priority.'
The report continues with stating that safety isn't the biggest consideration, but also the promotion of cycling, also called mobility-arguments (modal shift). sigh...

It has to be said that the report in principle considers changing from a intersection with or without traffic lights to a one-lane roundabout. That seems for most users more than 60 percent safer.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by michael769 »

koppie wrote: The report continues with stating that safety isn't the biggest consideration, but also the promotion of cycling, also called mobility-arguments (modal shift). sigh...
Quite bizarre. If they get a reputation for being dangerous surely they will not encourage cyclists to use them? Quite the opposite in fact.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by koppie »

michael769 wrote:
koppie wrote: The report continues with stating that safety isn't the biggest consideration, but also the promotion of cycling, also called mobility-arguments (modal shift). sigh...
Quite bizarre. If they get a reputation for being dangerous surely they will not encourage cyclists to use them? Quite the opposite in fact.
Don't forget that the totals are relative low. For the whole of the Netherlands with 3900 roundabouts it's (i am quoting now) between 52 and 73 extra hospital treatments. So it isn't perceived as extra dangerous, and cyclist are much to happy getting priority.

There is always a large number of people who get hit and only get some bruises because the speeds are low. Those aren't counted, and are in my opinion, from what I've seen the majority. You can make quite a big fly before you need to be taken to hospital.

For example, see attached picture, which shows the both direction problem.
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Roundabout Leersum Holland
Roundabout Leersum Holland
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by A303Paul »

It looks dangerous to me. Drivers approaching the roundabout will have to effectively cross three roads and look for three sets of traffic simultaneously

(a) Pedestrians (and I think zebra crossings immediately adjacent to roundabout are also dangerous and I thought were no longer favoured)

(b) Cyclists, who may be going quite fast

(c) Vehicles on the actual roundabout

Add in cycling muppets who decide to cycle the wrong way round the cycle roundabout and or weave between the cycle roundabout and the main one and you have a pretty potent mix.

What would best reduce cycling fatalities is for cyclists (and motorcycles) to be prohibited from overtaking other vehicles on the inside in slow moving traffic unless they are in a segregated lane and all cyclists and motorcyclists to be forced to have a helmet with personal registration number endorsed on it front and rear so that traffic cameras and policemen can enforce them and motorists and pedestrians can report them for dangerous behaviour. The helmet would be registered by DVLA in the same way as a vehicle is.

I wonder how long it will be before the first person on a Boris bike is be prosecuted after someone reports their behaviour quoting the unique serial number on the boris bike. I was very tempted to report a muppet riding a boris bike on the pavement the wrong way down a red route one way street.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by poshbakerloo »

What happens where the bikes cross where the cars drive?
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Mark Hewitt »

poshbakerloo wrote:What happens where the bikes cross where the cars drive?
Cars are supposed to give way.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Trainfan »

Trebeck wrote:I think zebra crossings work well in slow relatively narrow urban locations.
But not too narrow!

This seems to be a very quite time. On market day it is impossible to move without risking a road traffic offence,
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Fluid Dynamics »

WHBM wrote:This is a very poor layout for a whole range of reasons.

The Give Way position for the cycle track blocks the pedestrian crossing.

The sight lines for drivers exiting the roundabout of cyclists coming round from behind and to the left are desperately poor, and for HGV drivers may be non-existent. This was the No 1 issue at the Bow roundabout in East London, which has had multiple cycle fatalities, that drivers turning left had poor visibility of cyclists coming up fast on the nearside and heading straight on (it was initially overcome by a separate cycle phase, but there was of course universal violation of the cycle signal when red).

The cycle track with priority would seem to encourage the Lycra Louts to circulate at maximum speed as if on the Tour de France, and come into conflict with exiting vehicles before they can even see them.

What we need is sensible and appropriate cycle provision, given that the world is not divided into car-users and cycle-users, many/most of us are both. This roundabout doesn't pass any sensible test.

Regarding zebra crossings, I use these extensively, including the many in inner London, and find all across the UK pretty-universal compliance by vehicles. Stories of them being usually ignored are just urban legend.
As someone knocked down by a car failing to stop for a zebra crossing I beg to differ. I drive daily in London and the South East and regularly see drivers and cyclists ignore zebra crossings.

In my case I was hit by the third driver in a row that had failed to stop. Sunny day, good visibility and traffic coming the other way had stopped. Police confirmed the driver was at fault, I ended up luckily with just bruises and an injured ankle having been knocked forward in the air. One form of flying I would rather not experience again in a hurry. My wife and I had a few near misses on the same crossing beforehand, again due to cars failing to stop. I have since unsuccessfully lobbied my MP and Council to replace said crossing with traffic lights.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Debaser »

koppie wrote: Yes, and a google search let me find it quite fast: SWOV factsheet rotondes on page 4.
It says (trying to translate): 'According to Fortuyn2005B (another report, which isn't publicly available) the number of casualties, with people hurt, is more than twice as high as on roundabouts without cyclist having priority.'
The report continues with stating that safety isn't the biggest consideration, but also the promotion of cycling, also called mobility-arguments (modal shift). sigh...
English language version of that SWOV report. (BTW there's a lot of interesting safety-related research reports in English on their website if you look).
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by WHBM »

A303Paul wrote:I wonder how long it will be before the first person on a Boris bike is be prosecuted after someone reports their behaviour quoting the unique serial number on the boris bike. I was very tempted to report a muppet riding a boris bike on the pavement the wrong way down a red route one way street.
My experience in Central London is that the Boris Bikes are much less of a danger than those on their own racing bikes; it is these latter who are the worst regulation flouters. Most Boris bikers are slow and ponderous, a bit wobbly, and pretty careful, and I don't mind them - in fact I take one from time to time. I can't recall seeing any flouting red signals at speed, unlike their Lycra cousins. In fact one quite significant collision I saw on The Embankment was in the narrow gap up the left of vehicles (no bike lane). Signal went red, Boris Bike stopped, Lycra Bike coming up behind never anticipated they might do this and crashed into the back of the Boris.

Meanwhile, just an hour ago from writing this, coming north up Whitehall, little traffic about. Bus/bike lane on the left completely empty. General traffic lane on the right, Lycra Bike tooling very slowly up it right in the middle, therefore me slowly following and progressively a tail of others. Haha, sure it was amusing.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by M19 »

koppie wrote:[*]The turbo-bit is especially designed for dutch car drivers who can't use a multi-lane roundabout as is almost universal in the UK. They have to be guided toward the direction by lane markings which aren't forgiving for drive over.
I think this is the case here too.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Debaser »

A303Paul wrote:What would best reduce cycling fatalities is for cyclists (and motorcycles) to be prohibited from overtaking other vehicles on the inside in slow moving traffic unless they are in a segregated lane and all cyclists and motorcyclists to be forced to have a helmet with personal registration number endorsed on it front and rear so that traffic cameras and policemen can enforce them and motorists and pedestrians can report them for dangerous behaviour. The helmet would be registered by DVLA in the same way as a vehicle is.
What would best reduce cycling fatalities is a network of cycle lanes running in parallel to all our roads and completely segregated from motor vehicles. Of course, since cyclists don't pay road tax or indeed make any useful contributions to transport funding they'll never get it, hahaha! :roll:
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by boing_uk »

Shhh. Cycle scheme pay out quite nicely for signal refurbs which otherwise won't get done.

More please!
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by MJN »

koppie wrote: Yes, and a google search let me find it quite fast: SWOV factsheet rotondes on page 4.
It says (trying to translate): 'According to Fortuyn2005B (another report, which isn't publicly available) the number of casualties, with people hurt, is more than twice as high as on roundabouts without cyclist having priority.'
The report continues with stating that safety isn't the biggest consideration, but also the promotion of cycling, also called mobility-arguments (modal shift). sigh...

It has to be said that the report in principle considers changing from a intersection with or without traffic lights to a one-lane roundabout. That seems for most users more than 60 percent safer.
Thanks. Found an interesting blog post by Mark Wagenbuur on this as well http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/ ... therlands/
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by MJN »

A303Paul wrote:It looks dangerous to me. Drivers approaching the roundabout will have to effectively cross three roads and look for three sets of traffic simultaneously

(a) Pedestrians (and I think zebra crossings immediately adjacent to roundabout are also dangerous and I thought were no longer favoured)

(b) Cyclists, who may be going quite fast

(c) Vehicles on the actual roundabout

Add in cycling muppets who decide to cycle the wrong way round the cycle roundabout and or weave between the cycle roundabout and the main one and you have a pretty potent mix.

What would best reduce cycling fatalities is for cyclists (and motorcycles) to be prohibited from overtaking other vehicles on the inside in slow moving traffic unless they are in a segregated lane and all cyclists and motorcyclists to be forced to have a helmet with personal registration number endorsed on it front and rear so that traffic cameras and policemen can enforce them and motorists and pedestrians can report them for dangerous behaviour. The helmet would be registered by DVLA in the same way as a vehicle is.

I wonder how long it will be before the first person on a Boris bike is be prosecuted after someone reports their behaviour quoting the unique serial number on the boris bike. I was very tempted to report a muppet riding a boris bike on the pavement the wrong way down a red route one way street.
In most cases you have space between the roundabout and the cycle path to stop and give way so you don't have to look out for everyone at once, but of course there isn't always space for this. I would suspect that motor vehicle speeds are already necessarily low in these cases so they can more easily give way on the roundabout.

It is mandatory to use most parallel cycle paths in the Netherlands and I don't think people feel much desire not to, can't really see any advantage to 'weaving between the cycle roundabout and the main one' anyway?

Mandatory registered helmets sound like a terrible idea which would have a negligible impact on safety, whilst further ostracising cyclists and making it even less convenient than it is already.
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Re: 'Dutch-style' cycle roundabouts for London tested

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Debaser wrote: What would best reduce cycling fatalities is a network of cycle lanes running in parallel to all our roads and completely segregated from motor vehicles. Of course, since cyclists don't pay road tax or indeed make any useful contributions to transport funding they'll never get it, hahaha! :roll:
Nobody makes a direct contribution to roads funding.
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