Pointless motorway overhead messages

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DB617
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by DB617 »

Fenlander wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:24
ais523 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 17:02
DB617 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 15:03 New MS4 of shame at the Brynglas Tunnels:

POLLUTED AIR
KILLS
SLOW DOWN

:x Thanks for the safety critical message I can read instead of looking at the road.
That message may well be safety critical. The reason that avoiding accidents has safety importance is that it reduces the number of injuries and deaths. Avoiding deaths due to air pollution is just as important when it comes to reducing injuries and deaths; crashes aren't the only way to kill someone. So if overspeeding is causing deaths as a consequence of pollution, a sign warning people against it may well save lives, at least if people obey it.
How's this for coincidence, as I was reading this post a message just flashed up on the notifications on my phone to say a Boeing 747 has just taken off from Cardiff heading to St Athan, a distance of 4 miles as the crow flies (not being a crow of course it took off heading south east, did a 180 short of Flat Holm Island and came in to land heading south west at St Athan. It got as high as 3,375ft!). That must be a hideous pollutants/mile set of figures.
Funnily enough, I caught that driving out of Rhoose on the way to work. Considering I did my first solo at St Athan, it took me a concerningly long time to realise what on Earth a 747 was doing flying almost perpendicular to the Cardiff threshold.

That said, it's unlikely that aircraft will be polluting anymore. It'll be on its way to Ecube to have its guts ripped out and sold to a hundred different MROs. Funnily enough I used to work for them as well.
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Matthew
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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EpicChef wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 16:32 Instead of “M25 J25-27 LONG DELAYS”
say “M25 A10-M11 long delays
You've given two examples of more memorable numbers. Would M25 A243-A217|Long delays be known? Moreover, that's thirteen characters long and wouldn't fit on MS2s.
Opinion is purely my own and all those other exceptions and excuses.
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Bryn666
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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Matthew wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 13:30
EpicChef wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 16:32 Instead of “M25 J25-27 LONG DELAYS”
say “M25 A10-M11 long delays
You've given two examples of more memorable numbers. Would M25 A243-A217|Long delays be known? Moreover, that's thirteen characters long and wouldn't fit on MS2s.
There's no 'winning' way to inform of delays on an MS2/3/4. Ultimately the driver is responsible for taking the information and deciding what to do with it...

(oh wow, I defended HE, I must be getting too old :wink: )
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ManomayLR
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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The point is, they should get rid of the all caps messages on MS4s which are quite an eyesore and use purely sentence case. I just cannot stand “DO NOT USE CLOSED LANES” I do obey the red X but that message just always annoys the wits out of me.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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Matthew wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 13:30
EpicChef wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 16:32 Instead of “M25 J25-27 LONG DELAYS”
say “M25 A10-M11 long delays
You've given two examples of more memorable numbers. Would M25 A243-A217|Long delays be known? Moreover, that's thirteen characters long and wouldn't fit on MS2s.
To me junction numbers are meaningless, I already know road numbers as they are part of my route, so I just look for those on signs.

I live in south London, so those examples are not memorable to me as I would never have to use that section of the M25. I would imagine they are also not well known to anyone in other parts of the country who rarely travel to the south east.

To quote Chris Tarrant, as most people do, "it's only easy if you know the answer."

On the M4, "my" junction numbers are: A312, Heathrow, M25, Slough, A404, Reading East, Reading Central, Reading West (Sainsbury's), Newbury, Hungerford, Swindon, Other side of Swindon etc. No idea the numbers of them, nor can I recall the other junctions I have never needed, but I have never got lost using my system because it relates them to the real world.

There is nothing about the number six that means Slough, or Kinross, or Faversham etc. Junction numbers have little, if any, use in isolation and I do not have regular journeys to be constantly exposed to any specific. So I would have to learn them rote as they are so abstract and their only value is to understand those message signs.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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EpicChef wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 16:32Instead of “M25 J25-27 LONG DELAYS”
say “M25 A10-M11 long delays
I don't agree. On roads like the M25, junction numbers are miles better. I know where J28 is but I'd have to stop and think if they signed A1023, for example.
EpicChef wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 14:19 The point is, they should get rid of the all caps messages on MS4s which are quite an eyesore and use purely sentence case. I just cannot stand “DO NOT USE CLOSED LANES” I do obey the red X but that message just always annoys the wits out of me.
They need to be in all caps so they have a fighting chance of getting car-gammons to pay attention to it.
someone wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 15:09To me junction numbers are meaningless, I already know road numbers as they are part of my route, so I just look for those on signs.
I prefer junction numbers where available. I have enough trouble differentiating between A608 and A611. However if you tell me to turn right at M1 J27 I'd know exactly where you mean.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by Moore_O »

Matthew wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 13:30
EpicChef wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 16:32 Instead of “M25 J25-27 LONG DELAYS”
say “M25 A10-M11 long delays
You've given two examples of more memorable numbers. Would M25 A243-A217|Long delays be known? Moreover, that's thirteen characters long and wouldn't fit on MS2s.
To be honest, those signs could just as easily say "M25 LONG DELAYS" and they'd be just as useful. In fact, you needn't even bother making them interactive. Just have permanent signs.
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trickstat
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by trickstat »

I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of junction numbers but on the M25 I work on the basis that there are about 32 junctions which means about 8 per 'quadrant' with the quadrants being delineated by the Dartford Crossing, the M23, the M4 and the A1. This isn't perfect because there tends to be a greater junction density in the western half of the M25 but is handy when deciding whether heavy congestion between junctions x and y will affect me or not.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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someone wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 15:09

To me junction numbers are meaningless, I already know road numbers as they are part of my route, so I just look for those on signs.

I live in south London, so those examples are not memorable to me as I would never have to use that section of the M25. I would imagine they are also not well known to anyone in other parts of the country who rarely travel to the south east.

To quote Chris Tarrant, as most people do, "it's only easy if you know the answer."

On the M4, "my" junction numbers are: A312, Heathrow, M25, Slough, A404, Reading East, Reading Central, Reading West (Sainsbury's), Newbury, Hungerford, Swindon, Other side of Swindon etc. No idea the numbers of them, nor can I recall the other junctions I have never needed, but I have never got lost using my system because it relates them to the real world.

There is nothing about the number six that means Slough, or Kinross, or Faversham etc. Junction numbers have little, if any, use in isolation and I do not have regular journeys to be constantly exposed to any specific. So I would have to learn them rote as they are so abstract and their only value is to understand those message signs.
If you are not travelling to the South East the issue is academic and in any case such drivers are unlikely to know the road numbers either. If you are on the M25 the signs you go past have the numbers on them so some clue is to be had. In any event I always make up a little crib sheet such as

A1(M) South to M25
M25 East to A10 - J25
A10 South to North Circular
North Circular West to Arnos Grove

Yes I am a dinosaur who learned to drive before sat navs , VMS signs or the rest of the gubbins and the reality is most roads including some motorways dont have MS4 signs or indeed any matrix signs at all. I rather miss the Eye In the Sky on Capital Radio to be truthful.



The real issue is which direction the queue is and that is easier to show with junction numbers as they all increment clockwise from Dartford so you know roughly where if J6 is in relative terms to the last junction you passed. Additionally of course if you have the radio on and hane TA on you will get traffic alerts in rather more detail.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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someone wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 15:09To me junction numbers are meaningless, I already know road numbers as they are part of my route, so I just look for those on signs.
Good for you, but this rather misses the point.

You don’t have to know the junction numbers to find them useful. For example, if the sign says the queue or the closure is between M1 junctions 46 and 47, and you know you’re passing junction 9 and coming off in another couple of exits, it doesn’t matter where junctions 46 and 47 are Or what places they serve. The sequential numbering means you understand how far along they are in relation to where you are and you can make an informed decision about whether the information is relevant to you or not without having to know anything about them.

If, on the other hand, the sign said the M1 was closed between the A6120 and A656, and you know you’re near Luton and turning off at the A421, how do you relate that information to your journey without recognising and being able to place from memory every road number?

Whether you use junction numbers to track where you’re turning off is one thing, but when it comes to messages on variable message signs, the advantage of using junction numbers is abundantly clear. Where junction numbers don’t exist, and road numbers have to be used instead, messages like “A1 closed at A607” are of use only to the tiny fraction of passing motorists who know exactly where the A607 is and whether they’d be expecting to pass it. I know more than most drivers about road numbering and even I usually struggle with those messages.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by NICK 647063 »

You don’t have to know the junction numbers to find them useful. For example, if the sign says the queue or the closure is between M1 junctions 46 and 47, and you know you’re passing junction 9 and coming off in another couple of exits, it doesn’t matter where junctions 46 and 47 are Or what places they serve. The sequential numbering means you understand how far along they are in relation to where you are and you can make an informed decision about whether the information is relevant to you or not without having to know anything about them.

If, on the other hand, the sign said the M1 was closed between the A6120 and A656, and you know you’re near Luton and turning off at the A421, how do you relate that information to your journey without recognising and being able to place from memory every road number?

Whether you use junction numbers to track where you’re turning off is one thing, but when it comes to messages on variable message signs, the advantage of using junction numbers is abundantly clear. Where junction numbers don’t exist, and road numbers have to be used instead, messages like “A1 closed at A607” are of use only to the tiny fraction of passing motorists who know exactly where the A607 is and whether they’d be expecting to pass it. I know more than most drivers about road numbering and even I usually struggle with those messages.
Could not agree more, this is proven by when a motorway is closed you simply have like the one I saw today M1 closed J47 to J46 and that can be repeated on all the signs and as mentioned by Chris you have some idea where that is in relation to the numbers on Junctions you are passing at the time.

To compare to not having junction numbers the matrix signs on the A1(M) and M1 have to warn of delays on the A64 in another method....
You normally see “A64 closed after A169” but as this isn’t as simple as using junction numbers these are then followed up by “A64 closed Malton” the same is true throughout the summer “A64 delays after A166” followed by “A64 delays after York” I know these well as it’s pretty much permanently on throughout the summer!

I just think junction numbers make it so much easier for people to work out.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by graeme_t »

I once was coming up from Essex and saw the sign "A1 closed after A638". Now there are *two* A1 junctions with the A638, at either end of the Doncaster bypass, south of Retford and north of Doncaster. As it turns out, it was closed at Markham Moor, but this was definitely a situation where a junction number would have helped massively.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by Alderpoint »

Confusin message on this sign on the M42 today.

"Caution! Queue on Sliproad" "End"

The Caution message being on the two textual lines. The "End" being on the speed limit part.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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Alderpoint wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 22:37 Confusin message on this sign on the M42 today.

"Caution! Queue on Sliproad" "End"

The Caution message being on the two textual lines. The "End" being on the speed limit part.
I’ve never seen “caution” on “queue on slip road”.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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Neither will you see exclamation marks, either.
Opinion is purely my own and all those other exceptions and excuses.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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Arcuarius wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 16:17
EpicChef wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 14:19 The point is, they should get rid of the all caps messages on MS4s which are quite an eyesore and use purely sentence case. I just cannot stand “DO NOT USE CLOSED LANES” I do obey the red X but that message just always annoys the wits out of me.
They need to be in all caps so they have a fighting chance of getting car-gammons to pay attention to it.
Yeah, 'cos "If in doubt, shout" is such a successful approach. Older tech used all-caps because that was all it was capable of. WE now have better kit on the roads, and should be more thoughtful about how it is used. Sentence case should be preferred in all but the most exceptional of cases, accompanied by triangle warning signs where necessary.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by DB617 »

How much more important are VMS messages than normal signs? Generally we use sentence case for signs. What, I ask you, makes (especially message campaign) VMS need to be more attention grabbing than an ADS or gantry sign?
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 18:20
Arcuarius wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 16:17
EpicChef wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 14:19 The point is, they should get rid of the all caps messages on MS4s which are quite an eyesore and use purely sentence case. I just cannot stand “DO NOT USE CLOSED LANES” I do obey the red X but that message just always annoys the wits out of me.
They need to be in all caps so they have a fighting chance of getting car-gammons to pay attention to it.
Yeah, 'cos "If in doubt, shout" is such a successful approach. Older tech used all-caps because that was all it was capable of. WE now have better kit on the roads, and should be more thoughtful about how it is used. Sentence case should be preferred in all but the most exceptional of cases, accompanied by triangle warning signs where necessary.
True. It makes the most essential emergency messages more emphasized while not making every other message an eyesore because the MS4s glow so brightly.
For example, I saw an MS4 on the M25 (thankfully other direction) saying :XXX: STOP ROAD CLOSED. It would make more sense if it said :XXX: STOP Road closed because the STOP is more emphasized.

Also, after an accident I often see emergency services/HE close the motorway with a car by driving a HETO car with the words DONT PASS in front and stopping the traffic. But the MS4 and lane control signs oftentimes just have one lane closed. Like in this video. The HETOs need to work much more closely with the RCC to ensure all the signs are always updated and if the HETO is going to stop the traffic, back it up with all red X, the words STOP HERE DANGER AHEAD and possibly a red circle on its own without anything inside (meaning no vehicles).
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

Post by darkcape »

EpicChef wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 18:28
Also, after an accident I often see emergency services/HE close the motorway with a car by driving a HETO car with the words DONT PASS in front and stopping the traffic. But the MS4 and lane control signs oftentimes just have one lane closed. Like in this video. The HETOs need to work much more closely with the RCC to ensure all the signs are always updated and if the HETO is going to stop the traffic, back it up with all red X, the words STOP HERE DANGER AHEAD and possibly a red circle on its own without anything inside (meaning no vehicles).
The only vehicles "don't pass" applies to is the first vehicle in each lane so a max of five or six vehicles. The rest of the lanes are open so why change the signage.
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Re: Pointless motorway overhead messages

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graeme_t wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 22:24 I once was coming up from Essex and saw the sign "A1 closed after A638". Now there are *two* A1 junctions with the A638, at either end of the Doncaster bypass, south of Retford and north of Doncaster. As it turns out, it was closed at Markham Moor, but this was definitely a situation where a junction number would have helped massively.
Yes, I've seen similar a few times, you're right, it's not helpful!
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