New Lower Thames Crossing

[Telstarbox]

It certainly feels like a motorway but are there any motorway-type restrictions?

[Micro The Maniac]

What large vehicles are going to these places that are not permitted on motorways? Abnormal loads routinely travel on motorways.

Agricultural vehicles for one and any vehicle that is slower than 25 mph. Having worked in the petrochemical and power industries I have seen the speed that a vehicle carrying a large transformer or half a distillation column is capable of.

But let's be honest... it would be much better for that to travel along a motorway under escort than along any alternative local access route that might exist.

[KeithW]

What large vehicles are going to these places that are not permitted on motorways? Abnormal loads routinely travel on motorways.

Agricultural vehicles for one and any vehicle that is slower than 25 mph. Having worked in the petrochemical and power industries I have seen the speed that a vehicle carrying a large transformer or half a distillation column is capable of.

But let's be honest... it would be much better for that to travel along a motorway under escort than along any alternative local access route that might exist.

But it may also be unlawful which as I recall is why that section of road remained All Purpose. The main way to get very large and heavy loads to the Isle of Grain is A2/A289/A228.

[solocle]

There aren't any "no pedestrian" signs on the 4 lane, lane-controlled A2 - so are people walking there?
Or are there TROs?

I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think you can walk or cycle on all of the A2 until M2 Junction 1 (not that it would be a good idea).
The section from the A102 to Dartford Heath is 50mph with lane 1 signed for "local traffic" both ways, then this changes to NSL at the Kent border.
The obvious places for TRO signs would be at the Sun in the Sands, Kidbrooke or Dartford Heath junctions, and I've never seen any having driven that way a few times.

There are also no TRO signs at e.g. the Bean Interchange so it appears you could walk or cycle onto the A2 from there.

On the Rochester Way, just before the Dartford bypass starts a public footpath walks alongside the carriageway between the wall and the crash barrier here, as it's the only way to cross over the railway line below
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4444508 ... 384!8i8192

The road becomes more or less a motorway soon afterwards when the Dartford bypass starts which is just before the Kent boundary

Frankly I'd probably rather cycle along the D3M A2, rather than the D2/D2H A34...

Also notable is the complete absence of TRO signs at Darenth, despite the fact that cycles are legally banned from the A282... So you could enter onto the A282 just past the M25 "end" sign, without passing a no cycling (or indeed walking) sign!

[RichardA35]

Agricultural vehicles for one and any vehicle that is slower than 25 mph. Having worked in the petrochemical and power industries I have seen the speed that a vehicle carrying a large transformer or half a distillation column is capable of.

But let's be honest... it would be much better for that to travel along a motorway under escort than along any alternative local access route that might exist.

But it may also be unlawful which as I recall is why that section of road remained All Purpose. The main way to get very large and heavy loads to the Isle of Grain is A2/A289/A228.

I will point out (again) that there is no pre-cleared agreed route for abnormal loads onto the Isle of Grain so each journey would have to be cleared at the time and the structures assessed accordingly. There does exist a pre-cleared route around the whole of the M25 for 300t loads and lots of other sections of motorway are also pre-cleared so the use of the motorway at slow speed is not the reason.

[Micro The Maniac]

But it may also be unlawful which as I recall is why that section of road remained All Purpose.

In which case, the law is an ass!

[KeithW]

Yes, but this was specifically about the M2/A2 and surprisingly there is no abnormal route along the M2/A2 to Grain usual link

As I recall heavy /high loads in this context are in excess of 200 tons and 20 ft high. A large pressure vessel for an LNG terminal such as those on the Isle of Grain will not reach those thresholds but you are not going to want to send it through Gravesend. I have seen such movements and they cause chaos.

As built this roundabout near Wilton was larger and had gates in the middle to allow large loads through.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.57652 ... 312!8i6656

Its actually Heavy Route 32C and fortunately its been years since they moved anything major along it In fact many of the routes on that map and its accompanying schedules are hopelessly out of date. The map is dated 2007 but was out of date even then

Other examples

HR22A Folkestone (Folkestone Harbour) to Dungeness (Nuclear Power Station)

Folkestone Harbour hasnt seen anything larger than a 30ft yacht for over 2 decades
In fact when Dungeness B was being built there was not a cat in hells chance of shipping a large abnormal load along that route. It meant going up the A260 Tram Road and then along the A259 through Hythe.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.07060 ... 312!8i6656

When the transformers came in the route was A20 to Ashford. down the B2070 to Hamstreet where it squeezed under the bridge with inches to spare.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.06755 ... 312!8i6656

From there it took the A259 to New Romney and B2075 to Lydd where we had to have the crossing gates opened as the bridge wasnt strong enough.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.95790 ... 312!8i6656

Locally in my area I see

HR 32CD Middlesbrough (A172/A1085 R32B/13) to Redcar and Cleveland (Lackenby Docks)
That route became obsolete when the A66 opened more than 30 years ago

HR 56A Hartlepool (Docks) to Seaton Carew (Hartlepool Nuclear Power Station)
The docks became an Offshore support base many years ago and the Nuclear Power Station is next door to a the Able UK facility which dismantles decommissioned off shore oil facilities.

I had to smile at HR 170
Hartlepool (Able Yard) to Seaton Carew (Hartlepool Nuclear Power Station)
The two facilities are adjacent
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Ham ... 4d0.859781


HR 329 Darlington (A167/Whessoe Rd) to Middlesborough (Docks)
Middlesbrough Docks were closed more than 20 years ago and the Whessoe Road factory has been gone for many years

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

[RichardA35]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

Who made that suggestion as it isn't part of the LTC scheme?

[Micro The Maniac]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

An interesting point... does building a road automatically make it a "public right of way" as opposed to a highway?

As I understand it, the A2 upgrade was an offline build, so not on existing rights of way.

It would be totally stupid if, in the shortsightedness not to make it the M2 to start with, it being an existing rights of way proved to be an obstacle.

[ais523]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

An interesting point... does building a road automatically make it a "public right of way" as opposed to a highway?

As I understand it, the A2 upgrade was an offline build, so not on existing rights of way.

It would be totally stupid if, in the shortsightedness not to make it the M2 to start with, it being an existing rights of way proved to be an obstacle.

Anything that gets used as though it were a highway for 20 years automatically becomes a highway. I think that probably includes the right to use it on foot and/or cycle, although I'm a little uncertain on that.

This is why private paths often have explicit warning signs up that, although usable by the public, the landowner has the right to close them at any time; apparently some landowners close theirs for one day a year just to make certain of their right to do so in the future.

[Chris5156]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

You can’t do it arbitrarily, no, but you can do it when the appropriate legal procedures are followed. No LAR has to be built if you can show a suitable way round. The A1 became a motorway between J49 and J50 with no parallel LAR.

In any case, as RichardA35 has pointed out, the idea that abnormal roads would have to use the road is not a valid reason for a road not to become a motorway, if a highway authority decides that a road should become a motorway. Abnormal roads use motorways all the time.

[someone]

Class II traffic for the purposes of special roads are vehicles constructed for specific purposes. Those are:

• The movement of indivisible abnormal loads, where authorized by the Secretary of State
• Military and defence vehicles, where authorized by the Secretary of State, and
• Vehicles used to move excavated materials, vehicles constructed for use outside of the U.K., and plant machinery which meet certain legal requirements, or by any other vehicle authorized by the Secretary of State, all of which must be capable of travelling at 25 mph on level ground, unladen, and without a trailer.

The Secretary of State can also delegate their powers of authorization to a strategic highways company.

Abnormal loads can be legally authorized to use motorways and are not subject to a 25 mph minimum speed. Although that requirement does not apply to the movement of any vehicle anyway.

[ManomayLR]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

You can’t do it arbitrarily, no, but you can do it when the appropriate legal procedures are followed. No LAR has to be built if you can show a suitable way round. The A1 became a motorway between J49 and J50 with no parallel LAR.

In any case, as RichardA35 has pointed out, the idea that abnormal roads would have to use the road is not a valid reason for a road not to become a motorway, if a highway authority decides that a road should become a motorway. Abnormal roads use motorways all the time.

Maybe it's worth submitting an FOI request to Highways England to find out why it isn't M2. The A2 meets the design standards of a motorway so why is it not M2?

[Phil]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

You can’t do it arbitrarily, no, but you can do it when the appropriate legal procedures are followed. No LAR has to be built if you can show a suitable way round. The A1 became a motorway between J49 and J50 with no parallel LAR.

In any case, as RichardA35 has pointed out, the idea that abnormal roads would have to use the road is not a valid reason for a road not to become a motorway, if a highway authority decides that a road should become a motorway. Abnormal roads use motorways all the time.

Maybe it's worth submitting an FOI request to Highways England to find out why it isn't M2. The A2 meets the design standards of a motorway so why is it not M2?

Why? - we know why its not a motorway!

The A2 in this area is basically an online upgrade* and the Government didn't consider it worth spending lots of money on all the legal stuff (including the LAR issue) to make it a motorway. Whether the road has what might be termed 'motorway features' means nothing.

While I am the first to critise the way the DfT have behaved over the past 80 odd years with respect to using all purpose roads rather than doing a popper job and building / upgrading them top motorways, putting in a FOI request as to why this is the case with the A2 is a complete waste of money.


* Some realignment took place as part of the D3 to D4 widening to take it further away from residential areas and closer to HS1 for noise reasons.

[Bryn666]

You can’t do it arbitrarily, no, but you can do it when the appropriate legal procedures are followed. No LAR has to be built if you can show a suitable way round. The A1 became a motorway between J49 and J50 with no parallel LAR.

In any case, as RichardA35 has pointed out, the idea that abnormal roads would have to use the road is not a valid reason for a road not to become a motorway, if a highway authority decides that a road should become a motorway. Abnormal roads use motorways all the time.

Maybe it's worth submitting an FOI request to Highways England to find out why it isn't M2. The A2 meets the design standards of a motorway so why is it not M2?

Why? - we know why its not a motorway!

The A2 in this area is basically an online upgrade* and the Government didn't consider it worth spending lots of money on all the legal stuff (including the LAR issue) to make it a motorway. Whether the road has what might be termed 'motorway features' means nothing.

While I am the first to critise the way the DfT have behaved over the past 80 odd years with respect to using all purpose roads rather than doing a popper job and building / upgrading them top motorways, putting in a FOI request as to why this is the case with the A2 is a complete waste of money.


* Some realignment took place as part of the D3 to D4 widening to take it further away from residential areas and closer to HS1 for noise reasons.

Indeed, the A2 has slowly grown from 3 lane single carriageway to what it is today. That's why nobody has ever addressed the status of it, although it is absolutely ridiculous that this road, which is better than most of the motorway network, is still open to tractors and other vehicles that can't use the M2 further down.

[KeithW]

In any event you cannot abritrarily extinguish existing rights of way just so you can put up blue signs, that means if you decide t make the A2 between Ebbsfleet and the M2 a motorway you need to budget for a 6 mile long LAR.

You can’t do it arbitrarily, no, but you can do it when the appropriate legal procedures are followed. No LAR has to be built if you can show a suitable way round. The A1 became a motorway between J49 and J50 with no parallel LAR.

In any case, as RichardA35 has pointed out, the idea that abnormal roads would have to use the road is not a valid reason for a road not to become a motorway, if a highway authority decides that a road should become a motorway. Abnormal roads use motorways all the time.

In the case of the A1 between J49 and J50 there is nothing to access except Rainton which is accessible from J49.
It is rather the exception that proves the rule.

Abnormal loads may use motorways if permission is granted, this is not automatic and will probably not be granted for slow moving abnormal loads. Feel free to show a viable local access route from Ebbsfleet that is suitable for large agricultural vehicles. I don't see why there is an urgent need to make this 10 miles of excellent D3 road into a motorway.

[jervi]

You can’t do it arbitrarily, no, but you can do it when the appropriate legal procedures are followed. No LAR has to be built if you can show a suitable way round. The A1 became a motorway between J49 and J50 with no parallel LAR.

In any case, as RichardA35 has pointed out, the idea that abnormal roads would have to use the road is not a valid reason for a road not to become a motorway, if a highway authority decides that a road should become a motorway. Abnormal roads use motorways all the time.

Maybe it's worth submitting an FOI request to Highways England to find out why it isn't M2. The A2 meets the design standards of a motorway so why is it not M2?

Why? - we know why its not a motorway!

The A2 in this area is basically an online upgrade* and the Government didn't consider it worth spending lots of money on all the legal stuff (including the LAR issue) to make it a motorway. Whether the road has what might be termed 'motorway features' means nothing.

While I am the first to critise the way the DfT have behaved over the past 80 odd years with respect to using all purpose roads rather than doing a popper job and building / upgrading them top motorways, putting in a FOI request as to why this is the case with the A2 is a complete waste of money.


* Some realignment took place as part of the D3 to D4 widening to take it further away from residential areas and closer to HS1 for noise reasons.

Surely if the main issue that the Rights of way would be impacted due to Motorway Regulations, surely it isn't required to have a full LAR or service road. Surely a single lane track, maybe not even paved is sufficient enough (and safer) for that purpose. Put TRO on the track for no motor vehicles accept access. Have that running parallel to the A2/M2 and it means that all forms of transport have a Right of Way, to some degree on that corridor / way. By the looks of it, for most of its distance there is already a path running next to it.

[jervi]

The consultation has seemed to of disappeared into thin air. Not on the usual consultation website
Only the initial articular seems to mention it. https://highwaysengland.co.uk/lower-tha ... nsultation

[SouthWest Philip]

The consultation has seemed to of disappeared into thin air. Not on the usual consultation website
Only the initial articular seems to mention it. https://highwaysengland.co.uk/lower-tha ... nsultation

Consultation doesn't open until midnight tonight.

[jervi]

The consultation has seemed to of disappeared into thin air. Not on the usual consultation website
Only the initial articular seems to mention it. https://highwaysengland.co.uk/lower-tha ... nsultation

Consultation doesn't open until midnight tonight.

Silly me, thought it was the 14th.