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frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 22:31
There's two foot tunnels beneath the Thames - one at Greenwich and one at Woolwich by the ferry.
A rail link between Dartford and Thurrock area would massively improve transport links in the area and remove a number of those short local journeys. There is essentially no (I believe only one bus route and the ferry) public transport between Dartford/Gravesend and Thurrock. Any journeys require going into London and back out again.
There is a rail link between the Dartford and Thurrock areas on the HS1 line and a station at Ebbsfleet. The problem is that it has not the spare capacity to handle any extra services nor is there a viable location for a passenger station on the north bank
Technically there seems to be no reason why a new railway tunnel could not be run from Purfleet to Dartford. Whether it can be justified on economic/environmental grounds is another matter, since the early days of the railways there has been an separation of London railways north and south of the river, only Thameslink seems to have broken the barrier when it comes to suburban traffic.
KeithW wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:05
There is a rail link between the Dartford and Thurrock areas on the HS1 line and a station at Ebbsfleet. The problem is that it has not the spare capacity to handle any extra services nor is there a viable location for a passenger station on the north bank
Technically there seems to be no reason why a new railway tunnel could not be run from Purfleet to Dartford. Whether it can be justified on economic/environmental grounds is another matter, since the early days of the railways there has been an separation of London railways north and south of the river, only Thameslink seems to have broken the barrier when it comes to suburban traffic.
I'm fully aware of HS1 but it still involves going into London (i.e. Stratford). Also the problem is a lack of rolling stock to improve domestic high speed services. Linking local services on both sides of the river would make sense. To keep it back to roads, it's just impractical to expand Dartford.
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Would you not need a “local” rail bridge or tunnel to do that?? Just for commuter traffic. It would need to run in parallel to the Thames Tunnel (for HS1).
But again, there’s this presumption that x% of journeys across Dartford must be local in nature. How many resident’s passes are in use, for instance?? The ones with the 80% reduction?? That would give a good indication.
Also, of those journeys that are local, how many involve goods vehicles? How many are on shopping trips? How many are parents with their kids, or other groups resistant to rail? And of the remainder, how many happen to be going between two locations that would each be served by a station on the same line?
When you run the numbers on these things you almost invariably find that public transport improvements would make a negligible difference to road traffic volumes. There are good, positive reasons to invest in public transport, but a kneejerk reaction to congestion is not one of them, and a recipe for white elephants. A well designed public transport scheme will succeed regardless of effects on road traffic, because it is providing a service that people want to use, as opposed to a service that planners would like them to use.
I just wonder how many more locals are that interested in crossing regularly on top of any that do now.
Obviously there will be a certain number of commuters and people with family ties and so on but when it comes to amenities etc. I can’t see that the draw of crossing the river is that strong. Each side has one of the largest shopping/leisure complexes in Europe (Lakeside/Bluewater), and both sides are only a short distance from, and well within the gravitational pull of, a major world city, London, so most of the time it’s going to be easier/more interesting/more exciting to go into town than cross the river - assuming you can’t find what you want amongst the extensive offer available locally on your own side, that is.
frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 22:31
There's two foot tunnels beneath the Thames - one at Greenwich and one at Woolwich by the ferry.
A rail link between Dartford and Thurrock area would massively improve transport links in the area and remove a number of those short local journeys. There is essentially no (I believe only one bus route and the ferry) public transport between Dartford/Gravesend and Thurrock. Any journeys require going into London and back out again.
Even a bus link would work. It'll be a local public transport service so I'm sure the local authority or authorities would consider waiving the Dart Charge.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 22:31
There's two foot tunnels beneath the Thames - one at Greenwich and one at Woolwich by the ferry.
A rail link between Dartford and Thurrock area would massively improve transport links in the area and remove a number of those short local journeys. There is essentially no (I believe only one bus route and the ferry) public transport between Dartford/Gravesend and Thurrock. Any journeys require going into London and back out again.
Even a bus link would work. It'll be a local public transport service so I'm sure the local authority or authorities would consider waiving the Dart Charge.
Have either of you been to Grays or Dartford? There's literally no reason you'd want to make a local journey between the two.
frediculous_biggs wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 22:31
There's two foot tunnels beneath the Thames - one at Greenwich and one at Woolwich by the ferry.
A rail link between Dartford and Thurrock area would massively improve transport links in the area and remove a number of those short local journeys. There is essentially no (I believe only one bus route and the ferry) public transport between Dartford/Gravesend and Thurrock. Any journeys require going into London and back out again.
Even a bus link would work. It'll be a local public transport service so I'm sure the local authority or authorities would consider waiving the Dart Charge.
Have either of you been to Grays or Dartford? There's literally no reason you'd want to make a local journey between the two.
Perhaps only if you lived in one and got a job in the other or if you lived in one and had a close relative in the other. I suspect both scenarios are actually fairly rare.
Even a bus link would work. It'll be a local public transport service so I'm sure the local authority or authorities would consider waiving the Dart Charge.
Have either of you been to Grays or Dartford? There's literally no reason you'd want to make a local journey between the two.
Perhaps only if you lived in one and got a job in the other or if you lived in one and had a close relative in the other. I suspect both scenarios are actually fairly rare.
I don’t know the area well at all - my mum’s been round to Lakeside in Thurrock a couple times and I’ve gone to the services - other than that I’ve just passed through. I just built on frediculous_biggs’s idea with a system that might be more sustainable or easier to implement.
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
Berk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 00:04
It’s a bit like the Humber Bridge. I don’t think there’s that much call for local traffic, unless they’re making a medium/long-distance journey.
The two sides (Dartford and Purfleet/Thurrock) have historically had little to do with each other.
It's not a historical crossing point, as there was no ferry between Dartford and Purfleet, the ferry was further down between Gravesend and Tilbury (and still exists for foot passenger use only). Unlike Dartford, Gravesend is actually on the Thames.
Amongst other things, people from Essex aren't going to cross the river to go to Bluewater because they've got Lakeside while those from Kent aren't going to do the same for Lakeside because they have Bluewater.
trickstat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 07:18
Amongst other things, people from Essex aren't going to cross the river to go to Bluewater because they've got Lakeside while those from Kent aren't going to do the same for Lakeside because they have Bluewater.
Well why a bridge then? Why not just a huge Armco barrier if there’s not much connection!!?
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
Sorry if I came across a bit blunt further up. Yes, agree about Bluewater and lakeside. Neither town has lots of high paid jobs to make a commute worth bothering with, and both have small local centres featuring sadly mainly charity shops and takeaways and nail bars, with a local college in each and many suburbs. There really isn't any reason to go from one to the other, unless possibly for family reasons but even then I'd think it quite unlikely...
trickstat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 07:18
Amongst other things, people from Essex aren't going to cross the river to go to Bluewater because they've got Lakeside while those from Kent aren't going to do the same for Lakeside because they have Bluewater.
I think you'll be surprised how many people travel from Essex to Bluewater. Much better range of shops than Lakeside
trickstat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 07:18
Amongst other things, people from Essex aren't going to cross the river to go to Bluewater because they've got Lakeside while those from Kent aren't going to do the same for Lakeside because they have Bluewater.
I think you'll be surprised how many people travel from Essex to Bluewater. Much better range of shops than Lakeside
And vice versa. Bluewater is better for fashion, Lakeside has an Ikea!
trickstat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 07:18
Amongst other things, people from Essex aren't going to cross the river to go to Bluewater because they've got Lakeside while those from Kent aren't going to do the same for Lakeside because they have Bluewater.
I think you'll be surprised how many people travel from Essex to Bluewater. Much better range of shops than Lakeside
And vice versa. Bluewater is better for fashion, Lakeside has an Ikea!
There is now an Ikea in Greenwich - on the site of the allegedly 'green' Millennium Sainsbury's. STOP UP THE TUNNELS NOW! WE DON'T NEED THEM
