A9 dualling

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B9127
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by B9127 »

Ronnie wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 12:49 Has anyone done any research into why the local community wants a horrible big roundabout cluttering up the place?
Further question woulb be who are the community - the general population or a very vociferous minority?
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KeithW
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by KeithW »

Berk wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 19:51 Fair enough. But the bottom line is the locals are only concerned with their town, and their access between local roads, the station, and the A9.

By insisting on a community option, it's pretty plain they couldn’t give two hoots about long-distance and strategic users of the A9.
Nor should they, that is the job of Highways Scotland. If they don't mind being unpopular the Scottish Government can always try and ramroad it through, that has a political cost though. If I was in charge I would be looking for a compromise by offering the cut and cover tunnel and talking to the locals about a GSJ design they found acceptable. This is of course exactly what they have done and apparently intend to discuss as an alternative option. I would also be pointing out the problems with roundabouts as traffic levels increase on the main line.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/44 ... ds-1-9.pdf
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Truvelo
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Truvelo »

As far as a roundabout is concerned you just have to learn from the mistakes of the AWPR at Cleanhill to realise what a roundabout on an otherwise long distance GSJ'd D2 will cause. I just hope that if TS succumb to the demands of local NIMBYs that they at least design the roundabout to allow for future grade separation. Believe you me, there will be Cleanhill style accidents on a regular basis is a roundabout is built, not only because a roundabout is inappropriate on such a road but because drivers are used to there being no roundabout there at the moment so they are won't expect to see one in the future.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
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Berk
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Berk »

To be fair, that’s exactly what they did?? If those roundabout drawings that were released are anything to go by.

Maybe it will have to be a roundabout GSJ. :twisted:
Nwallace
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Nwallace »

How often do clean hill style accidents happen at the Keir?

As far as most drivers are concerned that's slap bang in the middle of a "motorway"

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KeithW
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by KeithW »

B9127 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 20:54 Further question woulb be who are the community - the general population or a very vociferous minority?
The people who have to live there for the rest of their lives.
All you have to do is look at their facebook page to get more details.
https://www.facebook.com/DandBCC/ wrote: Dunkeld & Birnam Community Council
7 May at 07:15 ·
Birnam to Ballinluig A9 Community Group Deadline for feedback to Transport Scotland Wednesday 8th May

A reminder that the deadline for feedback to TS is Wednesday 8th May and if you were not able to go to the exhibit and want to comment, the exhibition information is on the Transport Scotland website here.

It does now include a visualisation of the tunnel construction sequence as well as link to the “construction fact sheet” which was provided at the exhibit

https://www.transport.gov.scot/…/exhibi ... rials-comm…/

It includes a feedback form which can be downloaded. Comments can be sent to TS by email or post. Please do submit your feedback, be it positive, negative, or both, so that this can inform the ongoing assessments of the route designs.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/…/a9-dua ... -of-birnam

The A9 Community Group’s own feedback/survey form is available here; note that it is in addition to, not instead of, the TS feedback form; thanks to everyone who has already completed it.

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/a9exhibitionfeedback

The next meeting of the A9 Community Group will be Thursday 30th May, 7:30pm at The Royal Dunkeld Hotel.
This seems to be a good example of community involvement and ultimately is good for both local people and Transport Scotland as there is a good route for communication and both organisations seem to have been involved. In the English villages and small towns I lived in this tended to be done at the Parish Council level.

In the area where I live now we have a very similar setup which works well as channel of communications with official groups.
In fact it produced a Neighborhood Plan which was developed with and submitted to the local council who approved it.
https://middlesbrough.gov.uk/sites/defa ... d_Plan.pdf

Highways England did a LOT of talking to community groups over the A14 Upgrade. I really don't think you want to hack off the locals when doing a job like this, they can make life very difficult for you - see Newbury Bypass, swampy et al. Constructive engagement ultimately benefits all sides.
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Euan
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Euan »

Nwallace wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 23:14 How often do clean hill style accidents happen at the Keir?

As far as most drivers are concerned that's slap bang in the middle of a "motorway"

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I'm sure I read somewhere that Keir Roundabout has quite a poor accident record, similar to Cleanhill Roundabout just with more exits. The other similarity would be a dual carriageway leaving the main route through the junction (i.e. A956 or B8033). However with Dunkeld this would not be the case, although it would still be a massive inconvenience to slap a roundabout onto a main road at a junction which is not quite as pivotal as some other junctions along the route.
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Duncan macknight »

Given the Circumstances, this roundabout is the only realistic option in the meantime if the project is to compete in 2025. Dunkeld and Birnan have grown a bit since the road was originally constructed in 1977.

Of course building the proposed GSJ to slightly lower standards is obviously out of the question but that I think would make the situation better ie Bankfoot Junction?
B9127
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by B9127 »

Viewing Google Earth the south junction from Birnam onto the A9 south and the junction with the B867 at the same point in MHO lends itself to a skew bridge linking these two roads and would allow a northbound left off into Dunkeld and a left on from Dunkeld southbound and if something similar could be accommodated at the A822 junction with a left off southbound and a left on and left off northbound would that be a proposition? or am I missing something - with station put the car park under the A9 with access from the road leading up from the Birnam Institute which would free up part of the existing car park for the new A9 northbound lane
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A9Dan
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by A9Dan »

Pre-inquiry meeting for Tomatin to Moy has now been scheduled for 11 June.
A9Dan
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by A9Dan »

Decision Notice for Glen Garry to Dalwhinnie has now been issued and is available on the DPEA website. The Scottish Ministers have decided that the orders should be made, subject to minor modifications to the draft CPO.
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Bryn666
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Bryn666 »

Duncan macknight wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 15:02 Given the Circumstances, this roundabout is the only realistic option in the meantime if the project is to compete in 2025. Dunkeld and Birnan have grown a bit since the road was originally constructed in 1977.

Of course building the proposed GSJ to slightly lower standards is obviously out of the question but that I think would make the situation better ie Bankfoot Junction?
I'm not sure why a compact GSJ would not be perfectly acceptable given the relatively low volumes on the A9. It doesn't need a massive two bridge roundabout monster.

DMRB resulting in needless over-designing everything again?
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by A9Craig »

A9Dan wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 15:32 Decision Notice for Glen Garry to Dalwhinnie has now been issued and is available on the DPEA website. The Scottish Ministers have decided that the orders should be made, subject to minor modifications to the draft CPO.
Great report, makes a mockery of Transform Scotland's objection.
Glen Garry to Dalwhinnie Report

It seems likely that Dalwhinnie to Crubenmore will also reach Made Orders this summer, with Transform Scotland being the only remaining objector. I'm therefore expecting to see these 2 schemes bundled together for procurement towards the end of the year.
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Duncan macknight »

Luncarty to Birnam Dualling Update:

Each existing dual carriageway has had a chunk taken out of them near the ends to make a crossover for tie in works. Bridge supports for the Murthly Junction are in place. A wee stretch of the new southbound carriageway should be surfaced by the summer. Quite a sudden 40 limit at the Pass of Birnam D2 as everyone goes from 70/80 down to 40.
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Re: A9 dualling

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Duncan macknight wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2019 20:59 Luncarty to Birnam Dualling Update:

Each existing dual carriageway has had a chunk taken out of them near the ends to make a crossover for tie in works. Bridge supports for the Murthly Junction are in place. A wee stretch of the new southbound carriageway should be surfaced by the summer. Quite a sudden 40 limit at the Pass of Birnam D2 as everyone goes from 70/80 down to 40.
Who is the muck shifting subbie
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by orudge »

Despite calls from the Scottish Greens to abandon the A9 and A96 dualling following the declaration of a climate emergency, the government has confirmed that both projects will continue as planned.
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Euan
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Euan »

orudge wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2019 22:58 Despite calls from the Scottish Greens to abandon the A9 and A96 dualling following the declaration of a climate emergency, the government has confirmed that both projects will continue as planned.
But surely just leaving the single carriageway sections of the A9 as they are at the moment would worsen the environmental impact of the road even more?

As long as basic measures are undertaken such as a promise to replant any lost trees or grass then it should be okay from a green perspective building the new carriageways.
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Berk »

Exactly. I find it heartening that the Scottish Government have taken a much more pragmatic stance, which cannot be said of their counterparts in Cardiff.
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by djw1981 »

That pragmatism also involves promises made in election campaigns to win seats which could be marginal if the voters felt that there was a failure to deliver those promises.
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Euan
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Re: A9 dualling

Post by Euan »

Even if there is an environmental case against building new roads in general, it would probably be unwise to scrap the dualling projects for the A9 at this stage given how far some stages have already advanced in the procedure, not to mention the fact that the second segment is already under construction. It would be foolish to leave an upgrade unfinished, but it would not by any means be unprecedented as I'm sure many of us know.
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