A9 dualling

[GrahameCase]

I’m worried that having a roundabout immediately after a cut and cover tunnel for station) is going to cause real issues. It takes people a moment or two to adjust to coming out in the open - to have to decelerate rapidly might be an additional challenge

[Herned]

This https://goo.gl/maps/XDKauyrVDyC2 one in Lewes has existed for 30 odd years and as far as I'm aware doesn't cause issues. Roundabouts next to tunnels are common in Norway etc.

[Bryn666]

The co-creative process was always likely to end up with a roundabout at the main Dunkeld junction. The design of the Dunkeld junction and the fact that roundabouts were rejected early on in the engineering design were the primary local complaints about the original engineer lead process.

Handing the choice back to local residents unsurprisingly resulted in them choosing the option that won't work well in peak summer traffic albeit it will probably be not too bad for most of the year.

I doubt anyone in Scottish Government will be willing to overturn the whole process and reinsert a grade separated junction but we will see. In ten years time it will probably be locals complaining about tailbacks and traffic diverting through the village to avoid the queues on the A9, asking for a grade separated junction to be built...

That's democracy for you... also probably demonstrates quite well some of the folly aspect of the A9 scheme.

[haggishunter]

Would something along this altered version of A be possible in the space and what would the traffic implications be of having no junction and sending traffic to/from the A9 along Perth Road. If the outcome would be bad off the A9 the devil in me says tough for trying to slap an at grade roundabout in here!

If it ends being one of the options of the co-creative 4 then option B looks like the least objectionable and I assume a roundabout here would be less of a bottleneck than the Longman or Inveralmond (stand to be corrected on that though). But any of the roundabout options should be only on condition that it is the absolute only exception to no new at grade junctions.

In terms of the logistic of doing the cut and cover tunnel at the station, would that be possible one carriageway at a time or would it be a case of closing the A9 and putting all traffic along Perth Road for the duration?

[A9NWIL]

I’m worried that having a roundabout immediately after a cut and cover tunnel for station) is going to cause real issues. It takes people a moment or two to adjust to coming out in the open - to have to decelerate rapidly might be an additional challenge

You mean it could cause accidents! I can see that too even if they put lights on the roundabout!

[GrahameCase]

You mean it could cause accidents! I can see that too even if they put lights on the roundabout!

Exactly, 70mph dual carriageway tunnel to a dead stop roundabout, it’d going to become an accident black spot

[GrahameCase]

In terms of the logistic of doing the cut and cover tunnel at the station, would that be possible one carriageway at a time or would it be a case of closing the A9 and putting all traffic along Perth Road for the duration?

Would it not be poetic justice for the residents of Dunkeld and Birmham if this was to happen, especially with the at grade roundabout option.

[Nwallace]

The need to divert traffic through Birnam during the works is noted in the pro/con listings on each option that needs it.
Also noted is where traffic through Birnam would increase for example if traffic heading south had to go to the south junction and northbound traffic to the north junction

Also the tunnels were all showing a con of the need for a 50mph limit for safety reasons, so it's not going to be 70mph out of a tunnel onto a roundabout.

I can see both the tunnel and roundabout options being rejected, one of cost grounds, the other on safety grounds.

Will be interesting to see what we end up with, and then how long it takes DCT to kick off a stink about some aspect of it!

[Bryn666]

It seems rather strange that given the intention of the A9 project is to enable a non-stop connection between Perth and Inverness that additional roundabouts are now proposed.

Rather defeats the point in my view, but then again one look at the AWPR and it's evident junctions are not a strong point for designers in Scotland.

[jackal]

Two of the four options have a tunnel AND roundabout - high cost, low capacity. Sad to see that Scotland has also 'had enough of experts'.

[Chris5156]

Rather defeats the point in my view, but then again one look at the AWPR and it's evident junctions are not a strong point for designers in Scotland.

Slightly OT, but I wouldn't say England are leading the world in that field either...!

[Bryn666]

Well no. We're pretty pants all round. And then Wales showed us all how to do it with proposing a flat roundabout on the M48.

[Halmyre]

Two of the four options have a tunnel AND roundabout - high cost, low capacity. Sad to see that Scotland has also 'had enough of experts'.

I can only hope that those two proposals are deliberate spoilers and the real choise is the at-grade options, in much the same way that some of the proposed names for the Queensferry Crossing were deliberately naff.

[Glen]

Isn't the point in the co-creative process to come up with a shortlisted option that they can say the community had some involvement in, not to actually select the preferred option to take to stage 3?

[orudge]

According to this page, in May and June, "the community with work with Transport Scotland to select a preferred option from the short list."

That said, this page then says "the community will then be invited to select its preferred Whole Route Option (either online, by email or in person) which will be submitted to Scottish Government Ministers for their consideration."

But as suggested above, will the Minister want to overrule the "community decision" and risk being accused of trampling over local opinion, etc?

[GrahameCase]

Looks like it will be going to a PLI then - given the Scottish governments aims of improving journey time and reliability. They can’t in all consciousness accept any at grade roundabout junction on the route (unless temporary like proposed north of Tay crossing for the Tay Crossing to Ballinluig section )

[paully]

None of these options are going to get taken seriously. They all have tunnels in them, and are therefore likely to get discounted on cost grounds! Some of the official plans showed a new car park on the other side of the station, which freed up enough room for both carriageways to pass the station building without the need for a tunnel.

[Nwallace]

None of these options are going to get taken seriously. They all have tunnels in them, and are therefore likely to get discounted on cost grounds! Some of the official plans showed a new car park on the other side of the station, which freed up enough room for both carriageways to pass the station building without the need for a tunnel.

IIRC that involved moving the actual station leaving the listed station building in place and rather orphaned from the new station area.

[B9127]

If the letting of the contract for the Luncarty to Birnam section is setting an example they will be lucky if Killiecrankie gets let before the turn of the century

[Burns]

I love the UK. Why is dualling this section of the A9 to the same standard as the rest of the route so hard? Yes, I know it's a little more hemmed in than in other spots, although the plans for Slochd don't seem to have this issue and that's a much tighter valley. I also don't get why adding a tiny cut & cover tunnel under a station car park is causing so much controversy. They've been built without issue in Stirling and Conwy (there are probably other examples around the country) and that's assuming it's even needed at all.

Then we get to the issue of the roundabout. Come on now, UK, are you really that incompetent that you can't even squeeze a compact GSJ there? Like I say, the space isn't even that narrow. This is facepalm stuff right here. Considering we're in 2018 and it takes around 3 years to upgrade a few miles to dual carriageway, the 2025 deadline is looking increasingly unlikely and even when it is done, the D2 could well be inferior to the S2 that's there now if they stick roundabouts onto the currently free flowing route.